Quinn: And then JPJ comes rolling--like the Kool-Aid Man, just bursting into the room.
[Theme music begins. It's an upbeat guitar quickly joined by drums and a piano. It continues and fades out as Quinn begins speaking again.]
Quinn: Welcome to the first episode of Young Bopping Twenty-Somethings. It's a show in which we watch really fun movies and TV shows that we enjoyed watching. Are they going to be Art House films, the highest quality of cinema? Yes. [Jhanelle laughs] And that is why our first episode is about the TV show Bachelor in Paradise. The whole general concept but specifically season 6 which just came out very recently and was a hell of a ride.
Jhanelle: [chuckles] Definitely that.
Quinn: So uh, why did we watch Bachelor in Paradise, Jhanelle?
Jhanelle: So, you watched Bachelor in Paradise because... I made you.
Quinn: Because I love my friend and I wanted to have something to talk to her about, and she really wanted to talk about Bachelor in Paradise.
Jhanelle: Yes. So I came to the whole Bachelor franchise during college. I knew a lot of people who watched the show and ended up watching it as like a social activity back in Ben Higgins' season. That was my first season. So I had partially, like watched most of that season. Watched a decent amount of Nick Viall's season , pretty much skipped Ari's season--thank God now that we know the ending of that--and then my first, like, full Bachelor season was Colton's this past year. And then after Colton I watched The Bachelorette for the first time with Hannah B. And then by that point I was so deep into this and so deep into just the Bachelor Cinematic Universe, that I had to go ahead with Bachelor in Paradise.
Quinn: So I've never seen any episode of The Bachelor franchise before. I'm familiar with the concept, because I live in America, but the thing that you don't realize--or I didn't realize--is that Bachelor in Paradise is not designed for newcomers. So the whole concept is they put a bunch of hot people on a beach. But all the hot people were previous Bachelor--Bachelor and Bachelorette contestants, and then week by week they couple up and then if you don't have a partner you're exiled from the island. And I presume turned into a lobster. But they don't bother to explain any of that to you. They just kind of, they're like here are the people on this show and then they're like "I was in Colton's season!" or whatever, but they don't really tell you what like... what happened in those previous seasons, and they don't actually explain the concept of Bachelor in Paradise until like, the second episode. And these episodes are two hours long, so it's quite a commitment to figure out what's going on! So I walked in like... hot people on a beach, I understand that much.
Jhanelle: Yes. So Bachelor in Paradise is definitely designed for people who have watched the previous cycle of Bachelor, Bachelorette. And I think that was like part of the reason why I went ahead and wanted to watch it because I actually knew about the back stories of everyone. Coming into it, I cannot imagine what that was like for you. Because there were so many like existing dramas, like both from the show and from like, Off-World, because another interesting thing is apparently everyone from The Bachelor spends all their time with people from The Bachelor. So during the offseason--and we'll get to that--during the offseason they're just all together. So there's like more drama coming into Paradise as well.
Quinn: Genuinely you--at like the first episode had sent me a screenshot of a message that had like the 411 on who we liked and who we didn't based on previous seasons and it was like, "we like these people and these people like not this person because of what she did here and like blah blah" and I referenced that constantly for the first couple weeks, because I'm like wait, who is this person? What am I supposed to know about her?
Jhanelle: Yeah.
Quinn: Yeah. It was certainly an interesting experience. I also just have to give a general shout out to the intro theme song to this show.
Jhanelle: Almost Paradise!
Quinn: Yeah, it's this song Almost Paradise and then they... they have every person on the show do a little couple second personality clip where they do some kind of activity on a beach and then they're like, "here's all the stars of the show!" And it's so bizarre because it's very fake but it's supposed to look very fake... And it almost seems like in itself meta commentary on The Bachelor franchise.
Jhanelle: Yes. So I think that, I feel like Bachelor in Paradise is very much--it doesn't take itself as seriously as The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. It's more of a show that's supposed to be for fun. It's also, interestingly enough, it's apparently the only show--so contestants on the Bachelor and Bachelorette don't get paid to be on the show.
Quinn: Ohhh.
Jhanelle: But on Bachelor in Paradise, you do get paid.
Quinn: That explains a lot.
Jhanelle: Yes, so it's definitely more, I think it's more of a like, reality show reality show.
Quinn: I would love to be an editor on Bachelor in Paradise because the editors had a field day. They had so much fun editing like, over-dramatic clips together and also, you could tell when they really hated someone. There was this one scene where one of the, one of the characters--slash human beings--was talking about how they were like, [mocking deep voice] "yeah, you know Whitney and I had a really good conversation at the wedding" and then it cuts back to these two people at the wedding and they're like... "so the weather is nice today" and it's just the most boring thing you can imagine, it's so funny.
Jhanelle: Didn't they like overlay like music to as it was like a deep conversation? Ugh, love these editors.
Quinn: They were doing the most and were truly making the show what it is. But we start on the beach with--I think it was 11 women and nine men. I think those were the original numbers. And it's impossible to know who everyone is, you just really have to have a directory up on your phone while you're watching. Unless you've seen the show before you know who these people are. I am horrified to learn that I do know who all these people are after the series, at least the people who were there for--
Jhanelle: I'm so proud of you.
Quinn: --more than one or two episodes because near the end, they started bringing in just like a whole host of white men who looked exactly the same and I do not know who they all are.
Jhanelle: Yes. So that's also one key feature that's very different on Bachelor in Paradise is you don't start off with all the people. Every week they bring like a random member of... "Bachelor Nation," as it's called, down to the beach. And they tend, they tend to like, at least edit it in a way that it's like someone will be like, "oh, I really hope that he comes at some point" and then he just comes down the stairs.
Quinn: [mocking] Wow, what a surprise!
Jhanelle: I'm like "whoa!"
Quinn: Yeah, and it's supposed to, every time a new person arrives they're supposed to like shake things up and then you know, there might be some drama between couples or... blah blah blah.
Jhanelle: It just gets really awkward at the end though when everyone is already coupled up and they drop a new person and they're like "well... I'm here. I guess."
Quinn: Good luck. Were there any couples at the end that weren't there like from the very beginning or at least week two?
Jhanelle: Mm, other than Whitney and Connor? No.
Quinn: Okay well we don't talk about Whitney and Connor. Listen. That was--brief dis--because we're not gonna talk about them much, but that was truly one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Where they had this incredibly contrived thing where they had one person--Connor--who's the same person I made fun of earlier. He's like, you know, "I just really want Whitney to be here, but she's not here, so I'm going to leave." And then like Whitney shows up like an hour later and she was like, "I just want to see Connor" and they're like "oh, well Connor just left" and she was like, "oh, okay." And so she leaves too and then they go hook up in a hotel room outside the island and it's like, why did we need to see any of that?
Jhanelle: I would have been so angry if I were her. Like they, that was probably like a two hour long drive, that they drove her to this beachside place, like she's all like--she's wearing her bikini and her sarong like all dressed up all to--like what for this like, 45-second three-minute clip?
Quinn: Okay, well, I'm sure they have to do multiple takes so that she was probably there for at least an hour.
Jhanelle: [fake indignant] Excuse me, they don't do takes on the show. It is 100% real.
Quinn: Yes. I'm sorry, I forgot. If I was there to meet a guy but I was like on the beach. I was like "well might as well spend a day here, you know get some drinks or whatever." One of my favorite aspects of this show is that--so people can leave whenever they want, which most people don't, mostly people leave when they're a eliminated which means no one likes them enough to kind of pick them at the end of the week--
Jhanelle: Rough.
Quinn: But near the end of the show, more and more people started leaving voluntarily where they're like, "my person isn't here, I have enough Instagram brand deals now, like I'm out." And it's edited in such a way to make it look like there is always a van right outside the beach at any given time, that if you ever want to, it's like hailing a taxi, if you ever want to leave you just walk out and you get in the van that's sitting there and you just like... You don't bring any stuff with you. You just like walk in the van and then it takes you back to your real life.
Jhanelle: They're also like always wearing--like they just like, walk to the van. So half the time they just got out of the pool and then they're like well, I guess I'm going to the van now.
Quinn: Okay so. The big thing behind this show is that it's all these singles on a beach for six weeks, and at the end, some of them get engaged. And you might think, "that's a that's a fast turnaround." And it is, it's a very fast turnaround, but it was made even worse by something that you discovered and told me about halfway through the season.
Jhanelle: I have read that this show is filmed entirely within the month of June.
Quinn: [through laughter] So they're on the beach for like three weeks.
Jhanelle: And in these three weeks these people fall like in and out of love, have drama, expect to--legitimately expect to get engaged at the end of this show. It is, it is a wild, wild ride and adventure.
Quinn: I have to say real quick--I'm stealing this joke from someone else, but I was listening to an episode of Good Christian Fun about the Bachelor, or specifically The Bachelorette, recently and--one of the hosts said "if you think about the Bachelor shows as like real shows then it's really sad, but if you think about them as hot people doing sexy improv it becomes really fun." [both laugh] And I can't get that out of my head. So that's how I choose to think about it.
Jhanelle: I mean, I think it's much closer to that. I've always wondered though, because they always say like, "oh you like don't expect it to happen. But you actually like get--like it all the feelings are real etc." I mean, I guess like if you locked a bunch of hot people... Like you're basically locking them on an island together and being like "you can only talk to each other. You have no phones and no TV and no books."
Quinn: And also it's incredibly hot and you're all drunk all the time.
Jhanelle: Yes! I mean, I guess you could fall in love, like that seems plausible.
Quinn: Yeah, I weirdly enough genuinely know people who got engaged after a couple weeks and are like, married decades later and it's like oh, okay, so it does happen and...
Jhanelle: Yeah, it's just usually not on a reality show beach.
Quinn: Yeah for sure.
Jhanelle: Typically.
Quinn: And it's pretty rare, and it's also just... I mean like I can--I believe that these some of these people genuinely develop really intense feelings for each other.
Jhanelle: That's true.
Quinn: It's just really funny when they're like, then having conflict over whether or not it's too soon to get engaged. And it's like, of course it's too soon to get engaged!
Jhanelle: Yes. [Quinn laughs] The answer is yes.
Quinn: You're 24 and have known this guy for three weeks.
Jhanelle: Oh my gosh.
Quinn: Listen, if I told you I was engaged to someone that I met three weeks--well, okay to be fair, they've all been dming each other and most of them have met previously. But yeah, if I told you I was engaged to someone I'd only been dating for three weeks, you would not be okay with that.
Jhanelle: Yeah, I probably wouldn't be. I would probably do a lot of checking in with you. I guess eventually I'd have to let it go because I wouldn't want you to not be friends with me anymore.
Quinn: Aww.
Jhanelle: But I'd really try my best.
Quinn: Well, you can come to my wedding that I am also having at The Bachelor in Paradise and Chris Harrison is going through officiate.
Jhanelle: Oh is Wells gonna bartend?
Quinn: Absolutely.
Jhanelle: ...Wills? Wells?
Quinn: Wells.
Jhanelle: Which one--there's a Wills and a Wells, it gets very confusing.
Quinn: I know, that was very confusing to me. Yeah I also--they do not explain who Wells is by the way, there's a bartender on the show named Wells and I found out like months later that he was a previous Bachelor contestant? I don't know.
Jhanelle: Yeah, so apparently like in his past life, he was like a radio show host--
Quinn: Respect.
Jhanelle: --and then he like ended up on The Bachelor for like a hot second. And now he probably gets paid a lot to like, fake bartend on a beach. And he's engaged to Sarah Hyland. So he's really just like thriving.
Quinn: He's--he's won The Bachelor, I think. Like the whole concept.
Jhanelle: He's the real winner of The Bachelor.
Quinn: Absolutely.
Jhanelle: Oh, that's another thing. This show is--it's definitely a competition show, but you're not, like no one's allowed to talk about it in terms of winning and losing.
Quinn: Yeah. I guess it just sounds rude to say that when like, winning is getting engaged. Wasn't that a conflict on a--I've learned a lot about the most recent Bachelorette season since I started watching this, and that was the thing that like the guy who got engaged at the end like told all his friends that he won The Bachelorette and they were like "do you mean you're engaged now?"
Jhanelle: Yeah, so that's the thing. I feel like you can probably--if you're talking about in the general sense of a show, it's probably fine. But like once you're actually engaged to someone you probably shouldn't say you won. Unless you're like "I won the best prize in the world, my beautiful fiancee." And even then it's a little iffy.
Quinn: Yeah, you can kind of tell with tone what people mean when they say that. Oh boy.
Jhanelle: [putting on a deeper voice] "I won."
Quinn: Yeah but if you look at the--there's this really funny spreadsheet on the Wikipedia page where--oh, one, the Wikipedia page has listed everyone's careers, which is an adventure in itself.
Jhanelle: I was unaware of this.
Quinn: Oh my God. Two, they have this really intense spreadsheet of like... how everyone did on the show and there's really long color-coding. There's just like so many different colors involved in this, to sort of determine all of the different outcomes of it. And in one of the columns on one of the graphs is: eliminated. And it tells you like when, it just says like, either when they were eliminated or when they broke up with whoever they were dating. Except for the people at the top of it, like "they're engaged" and... But it also it keeps track of like what has happened after Paradise. So I have to presume this will, if any of these people who are currently engaged break up, it will be updated to be like "engaged on show, broke up later." That's really sad.
Jhanelle: Wait, Quinn. Do you not think they're all getting married? All of these 23 year olds who have known each other for three weeks?
Quinn: Oh my God, if Katie and Chris get married, I'll genuinely be really sad.
Jhanelle: Oh my gosh. Apparently according to their Instagram, they are in a much better place now, so good on them.
Quinn: Well as we know, Instagram is definitely real life.
Jhanelle: I take it as gospel, so.
Quinn: I mean also--like I mean our other information on them is based on a reality television show, so whatever.
Jhanelle: Fair. So honestly both equally valid sources.
Quinn: It's true. Well with that, do you want to dive kind of into like the specific people on this season? Besides Connor and Whitney, who we've already made fun of.
Jhanelle: Let's do it. Do you want to save the best for, best for last? Or do we want to start with that?
Quinn: I think best for last, as with the show.
Jhanelle: Okay.
Quinn: Does it does that imply we're starting with the worst? Because I want to know who you would start with if we're starting with the worst.
Jhanelle: I think then--okay if we're leaving them to last, we can go ahead and start... Should we start with the famous... [through laughter] well-known, highly publicized music festival called Stagecoach? Which by the way, no one has ever heard of--
Quinn: Until now!
Jhanelle: --before the show.
Quinn: Okay, so.. First of all, if you did a shot every time they said "Stagecoach" on the show--
In unison: You'd be dead!
Jhanelle: Oh my God, like you cannot--if I were in charge of marketing at Stagecoach, this would be like Christmas.
Quinn: Oh my, I can't even--
Jhanelle: Like every time they said it.
Quinn: I'm sure--they're probably going to sell out Stagecoach the first time ever this year. Everyone's going to go there to try to meet Blake.
Jhanelle: So my--for context, my roommate, who used to be Quinn's roommate--is really into country music. So we considered going to Stagecoach. They are in fact pretty much sold out for presale tickets.
Quinn: Ohh. That's so sad. Janelle's trying to get me to go to Stagecoach, and I was like, I don't even mind country music, but I'm not going to any music festival in which Guy Fieri is a featured guest. So Stagecoach is a country music festival that was heavily featured in this season of Bachelor in Paradise because there is one guy named Blake who had gone to Stagecoach, and so had roughly half the female cast of the show, most of whom he had slept with during this weekend.
Jhanelle: Okay. Well--
Quinn: So as you can imagine this became a problem pretty early.
Jhanelle: So that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it does seem that Blake had some fun--
Quinn: That's how it emotionally felt.
Jhanelle: --to put it in... Victorian terms. But yes, so. Apparently they all roll through Stagecoach to like, take photos and like, Instagram. And Blake, who I did not--so Blake was on Becca Kufrin's season of The Bachelorette. I had no context of who Blake was. I did not watch that season. Apparently, he was like the runner up?
Quinn: Oh.
Jhanelle: And left that show like, apparently everyone loved him, like the public?
Quinn: Wild.
Jhanelle: Like he was the one that they wanted--like the public opinion for Blake should be Bachelor. So the context of going into what we're about to go into is apparently he was like "The Golden Child" of Bachelor Nation. Until he went to Stagecoach.
Quinn: Until--he should not have gone on the show. Yeah, but like week one--and it kind of starts like that ,people were like, "oh Blake is so cool" and I was sitting here like, okay, sure, because I don't know anything about him, but I guess people think he's cool. And then pretty quickly it comes out that... there are two women on the show, Caelynn and Kristina, who he both slept with at Stagecoach. And they're like, varying levels of chill about it. But both of them are pretty mad because they didn't know that he slept with both of them in the same weekend until like a week before they all went on the show together. And so they thought that like he handled it--so he wasn't a committed relationship with anyone, but he clearly like, handled this very poorly and there are conflicting stories about like how much he lied about it and all this stuff. So he was painted to kind of be like a womanizing villain very early in the show. And then all of the women--oh and he also like came on the show and they immediately went on a date with someone else and so. Then all of these women are pretty displeased about what he has done.
Jhanelle: Yes, he also, one thing that was fascinating--or not fascinating if you, depending on how you look at it--is that he clearly was unaware that this was all about to happen. Like he clearly went into this show being like "everything's great. Everything's happy. We're all good."
Quinn: You almost feel bad for him. Like--
Jhanelle: Yeah!
Quinn: --because he just clearly just doesn't have a concept of the real world.
Jhanelle: Exactly! Because there was no--none of the evidence of what he had done and been involved with and how he handled it should have pointed towards "everything will be fine." Yet he clearly thought that that was the outcome.
Quinn: And then he just like kept... kept on keeping on you know, and then he's like trying to pursue this other person on the show, Hannah.
Jhanelle: Who we then find out he flew out to visit before this, like the week before the show started filming. Oh to be clear: flew out to Alabama. So not like the most convenient--think he flew out to like Birmingham, not the most convenient place.
Quinn: And it's [laughs] and then like, they don't find out that he like flew out to see Hannah for a while into the show because she's like dating two guys at once on Bachelor in Paradise. People were like, "why are you dating Blake, he sucks," and she was like "well, you know--
Jhanelle: Reasons.
Quinn: --he like, you know he kind of actually, he made an effort to see me before the show" and they were like "what?!" And then you're like, "you know, he just flew out to Alabama and we just talked." And literally every single person on the show is like... "you just talked? Really?" And they've maintained that until the end of the series, but literally not one person believes them.
Jhanelle: But yeah, so Blake comes into this show not being the most popular figure. Then he's on the show, he comes I think when just Hannah is there, then I think Caelynn comes. He clearly knew that something was up there because he like, peaces out... on the beach like, as she walks down the stairs.
Quinn: Which is so dumb in retrospect, because they make it very clear later that they all knew who everyone was gonna be on the show. So that was purely for dramatic effect.
Jhanelle: Yes.
Quinn: And either the producers made him do that, which is very possible, or he decided to do that by himself for dramatic effect. All of those--all of those decisions are in line with my understanding of Blake as a person.
Jhanelle: Yeah, but so, so Caelynn comes down. She instantly tells Chris Harrison that she's not a, not a Blake fan because of what went down in Stagecoach. She comes on the beach. Blake pretty much just ignores her and like runs away. And then throughout the course of the first couple of--maybe like the first like, two episodes, Caelynn tells some other people on the beach what went--what happened. And then Kristina joins! The other, the other player in this Stagecoach saga. So some context here too, apparently Kristina and Blake have been like best friends for a while? So they were like really really good friends who then hooked up at Stagecoach. And then she didn't know about Caelynn until I think three days before Paradise started filming, Blake was like "oh by the way."
Quinn: And here's where the Instagram component of the Bachelor in Paradise Cinematic Universe really comes into play. Because I didn't know going into the show how much of this show actually takes place on Instagram.
Jhanelle: Yes. So one of the things about the Bachelor and like franchise being very much ingrained in Instagram now and like, influencer culture, and everyone spending all their time together, is because there is this offseason drama. There's also now a real life, real time component to the actual show.
Quinn: Which is pretty interesting honestly. Because--it's so--but apparently like Caelynn came on a show and she was like "Blake told me to lie, and he called me his secret and all this stuff and told me not to tell anyone" and then Blake on Instagram and was like, "no I didn't, here are the screenshots of all this stuff" and like posted them on Instagram. And then was like [mocking voice] "wow Caelynn's getting slut-shamed. That's a... that sucks. I had no idea this could ever possibly happen to her."
Jhanelle: Oh my God. Yes. So this mess, this whole mess. Um, one: I like--I feel like I could potentially believe that he actually didn't realize this would happen, not because it's reasonable in any way for him to have not realized it, but Blake seems to, seems to maybe miss a couple of crucial, obvious things in his life.
Quinn: Yeah, Blake is, I think we can posit here... not the sharpest tool in the shed. And I think that the decisions he's made in his life related to Bachelor in Paradise are partially him making bad decisions and doing bad things. And partially just really not knowing what's going on.
Jhanelle: Yeah, and just... so he released those messages. That became, kind of like revived it in into the present, because it was a storyline on the show for maybe like a few episodes. But the Instagram like the, like text message release made it a current moment.
Quinn: And it was, and it's weird too because like the show just like, the show's already been all pre-filmed and everything but then they watch it as it comes out and then like react to it in real time, because I mean they don't know what other people are saying in the show and they don't know how it's been edited to make them look and all this stuff. So you get those interesting revelations as it continues. And then at--I'm sure we'll get to the last episode at the end, but I didn't know this: I was--the last episode of this show is a retrospective where they get everyone back and like, interview them in front of a live studio audience, and it's like seven hours long, which they don't tell you when it starts.
Jhanelle: The moment that Quinn messaged me to tell me that she realized that After The Final Rose existed...
Quinn: Oh my God, I didn't know what that was. I was like, what's happening right now?
Jhanelle: I was like, you are in for an adventure.
Quinn: Well we'll get to that soon. But yeah, the whole Stagecoach thing is a big mess and I... really didn't care very much about it because I wasn't really personally invested with kind of anyone who was involved in it. But it did make just the word and existence of Stagecoach very funny to me because it kept coming up over and over again. And then later like someone else shows up like who Blake knew at Stagecoach and he was like, "I did not sleep with her though." [laughter] It's like, oh boy.
Jhanelle: Yeah. So Blake had a rough time this Paradise. He did not end up with anyone. He... he really shouldn't have come on the show.
Quinn: Yeah, this did not do him any favors.
Jhanelle: Yeah, this did him no favors. He went on some dates and ultimately ended up with no one. He like went out with one girl and was like, "you're definitely getting my rose" and then he like talked to Kristina and then he goes back to her like, "you know, I'm really not sure what I'm going to do."
Quinn: That was so dumb, oh my God. Also someone drew a parallel from this, this thing at the end of the Legally Blonde movie where it says "Warner graduated with no girlfriend, no job, and no honors" it's like, "Blake at the end of Bachelor in Paradise."
Jhanelle: I know, I just I hope he... chooses to make better life choices in the future, preferably those that don't involve Bachelor in Paradise. My hopes are not high that we will not see him next season.
Quinn: Oh my God, I can't even imagine.
Jhanelle: But yeah, that was--oh another, another element of the Blake adventure. So he's alone on this beach--they also have many shots of him looking sad and alone in various locations on this beach. [words dissolve into laughter]
Quinn: Yes, perfect.
Jhanelle: But so he eventually near the end has the most insane revelation that he and Kristina are meant to be together. That was genuinely as though... as though someone had given him a rom-com script and said "this is your life now."
Quinn: And yeah, and it was just edited in this super overdramatic montage of them together and everything where Blake's like, "oh my God, it was in front of me the whole time. The love of my life." And Kristina's like... "what? "
Jhanelle: Oh my gosh. But yeah, so the show ends with Blake not engaged.
Quinn: Jumping off of that, the person he was trying to date for part of the show is Hannah--
Jhanelle: Hannah G.
Quinn: Sorry, Hannah G. This is--okay. Hannah G is the only Hannah on this season of Bachelor in Paradise. But since Hannah B was a previous Bachelorette and she's still a character in The Bachelor Cinematic Universe, you have to--a lot of people refer to her as Hannah G. It's this whole thing.
Jhanelle: The thing is they actually were both originally on the same season of The Bachelor. So while they were on that show, they had to have the initials to tell the difference.
Quinn: But their initial also rhymes, so it's really hard.
Jhanelle: But it helps a little. But so then the thing about it is basically unless you become Bachelorette afterwards, your initial just stays with you forever. So like Hannah B like has pretty much done a lot to like--made a lot of strides in shedding the B and just being Hannah. But like, Hannah G has the G for the rest of her life.
Quinn: Wow. Well, I was really not invested in the Hannah G storyline, but it was like her--she's dating two people and she's torn between them, for no reason. The thing is like, they didn't give us any of Hannah's inner thoughts. Where she did the confessionals and talked to the camera because I think that there was no reason for this storyline. And so if they had it--they had to have her explain why she was interested in both of them, it wouldn't have made any sense. So they give you a very little of her speaking to camera. And instead it's just like "Hannah's dating Dylan and Blake. We don't know why."
Jhanelle: I think the real key came--because it was it was pretty late in the season that we find out about the Blake/Hannah flying out to visit situation. And I think if we'd known that at the beginning it would have made more sense why this love triangle was happening.
Quinn: Yeah. But I don't know because it was--and then it was set up that like Dylan is this really nice guy who's like, super into Hannah. But honestly like he was... too into Hannah. And I know that's a bonkers thing to say, but I'm watching the show and this guy is all over her and he's made it--from day one, he's like, "you're the only person I care about here, like you get my rose every week, you're the only person I'm here for" and she's like, "okay. I mean, I like you too," but she did not seem like--she seemed pretty put off by how overly clingy and all over her that he was and I was like, yeah, I really empathize for her. I mean God knows what she was actually thinking but it was just like oh, is this what people want? Is--do people want like guys to be this all over them? I was like, oh, I don't know.
Jhanelle: I did feel for her too, in that a lot of the beach seem to be like, oh like "Dylan's so in love with you, why wouldn't you just instantly pick Dylan?" and it's like if--it doesn't seem to me that they met, they actually met before the show, like maybe they DM'd, but it doesn't seem like they met each other like... I'm sure he's great, but that was a lot. Like that was a lot, knowing someone for, at that point, it would have been like four days. So...
Quinn: Oh my God, multiple times on this show this--I cannot believe this was a pattern--someone would be like, most--usually a guy would be like, "I just think that so-and-so is just the most beautiful woman in the world. And I think she could really be my wife. And yes, we have DM'd on Instagram three times and I'm meeting her in person for the first time today." And it's like what?!
Jhanelle: Oh my gosh. My favorite was--I don't even remember who it was, like the first episode there was one guy that was like, "I just think that she's great like, you can really wear that romper. Most girls can't do that."
Quinn: I don't remember that, oh my God.
Jhanelle: There was a guy that was like, talking about how like she looks--this girl like looked really great in a romper and you know, most girls like can't really pull off a romper.
Quinn: That's just not true.
Jhanelle: And I'm like one, false! Two, is this a compliment?
Quinn: That's, that's the weirdest "you're not like other girls" thing I've ever heard.
Jhanelle: Right? It was also--I think it might have been a different guy who like, everyone he talked about like, wanting to marry. He's like,"yeah, you know, there's so great. Like they have those legs. And those arms. And that face."
Quinn: [laughs] ...yep.
Jhanelle: All the ingredients of a marriage.
Quinn: Really love when a, when a human woman is breathing. But you know, Hannah G and Dylan get engaged at the end and you know, they're a 24 year old tech entrepreneur and model couple. So really just a modern romance. But I do want to talk about Tayshia and John Paul Jones.
Jhanelle: Oh my God.
Quinn: How would you describe John Paul Jones?
Jhanelle: Okay, so I think the best description I've heard of him, and we're going to exclude--so this is excluding his five episode long fever dream period--a best description I've heard of him is like a golden retriever in real life, like as a human.
Quinn: If a golden retriever learned how to surf.
Jhanelle: Yeah, like he... so complex, such a complex man. He's like uh--like he seems like he's like a finance bro, but then he's also really kooky and also very strange. And like, I just don't know what, I don't know what to make of him. I don't know--it's difficult to understand him.
Quinn: He rolled up to the beach the first day in a Speedo. And then he has this--the most intense, like deep kind of California voice.
Jhanelle: Yes.
Quinn: And yeah, and he's very bro-y, but he's also just... You have no idea what he's about to do next.
Jhanelle: Exactly. Like I think he's someone who very obviously has come on these shows just like "why the hell?" Like, "this could be a--oh, why not, this could be a thing."
Quinn: And he's there to yell at Derek.
Jhanelle: Oh my gosh--
Quinn: [imitating JPJ's deep voice] Do not insult my intelligence, Derek.
Jhanelle: That is the five episode fever dream that I'm referring to. So at some point JPJ is like in a kind of thing with Tayshia. He's clearly a little more into her than she is into him at this point. And Tayshia is basically like "I think it'd be great if we you know, maybe saw other people, you know really to know if--maybe we'll come back to each other, but I think it's a good idea." And he's like, "I don't want to do this, but I will. And then we'll be together I guess." However, during this time Tayshia begins pursuing Derek on the beach, because she is not been clear about her desire to actually date other people, and actually has made the narrative more like that he should date--that JPJ should date other people. She has not made it clear that she is actively pursuing Derek.
Quinn: Yeah.
Jhanelle: Um, so she and Derek start becoming a thing and JPJ is not in love with that fact. I don't even know how to explain this because I'm still deeply confused of what happened here.
Quinn: This is my favorite drama on the show because it is somehow, someway, a drama about a podcast.
Jhanelle: Yes. So apparently, so JPJ gets into this whole thing about how Derek just like, just cares about his podcast. And invited him on his podcast, which apparently is a bad thing.
Quinn: Yeah, it's just--okay, and the other thing is the setup for the show thus far--we're like halfway through the season, Derek has really been set up as this great guy. His character on the show is like--he's a great guy like, he's pretty unassuming. He's been done dirty like in the previous week, which we'll get to in a minute. But you know, he's really taken it in stride and we're all supposed to really like Derek. And so when Derek and Tayshia start dating, it's like wow, they're--they seem really good together. And then JPJ comes rolling--like the Kool-Aid Man just bursting into the room. It's like--
Jhanelle: Yeah, so JPJ--he does this--I think the first time he does this whole thing is on the beach, and then he does it at a wedding, and then he does it on the beach again.
Quinn: Yeah, he does it at someone else's wedding, which is wild.
Jhanelle: So he has this whole thing where he's saying that Derek's a bad guy, he says that like, Derek like takes advantage of women and uses his podcast to like, sleep with women who DM him wanting to sleep with him.
Quinn: It was this combination of "he's only here for clout and to get more guests on his podcast and more content for his podcast," which is hilarious to me because that's definitely true of like 75% of the people on the show. And that like--I think some people are like, "yeah, maybe I'll meet someone" but you know, you go on the show to get more attention, right? And like, further your careers.
Jhanelle: Like it would be really weird for you to put your whole life and job on hold solely because you're like, "maybe I'll get married." That'd be really odd.
Quinn: And then, and then JPJ lands on like, "but also he's taking advantage of his fans and he's like, sleeping with these women who DM him and it's this really inappropriate use of power." Which is, I will say, a very valid thing to be concerned about. It's completely unclear whether this claim is substantiated in any way.
Jhanelle: Yeah, it's also--so eventually it comes out that there was some conversation at some point where Derek like--in like the boys dorm, where Derek says something like, "you know, you can really, like. You can really hook up with some of these girls who DM you," and that's what JPJ says. And then Derek says "I said after that, 'but I choose not to. When you when you do that you get yourself into trouble, like Blake.'"
Quinn: Yeah, which--that sounds like a pretty--like a realistic sequence of events, because men are dumb. So I completely believe that he said something like that, but I--
Jhanelle: The thing that was confusing about all of this is I feel like... I feel like in this whole argument with some nugget of truth. Like I do think Derek probably said that and probably did follow it up with "but I don't." Which like, still isn't a great thing to be like, "yeah, you can really hook up with all these girls." But I think what was really confusing was the way JPJ presented it was like... very, very to be extreme and over the top. Because if like, what his claim is for Derek--like you can be like, okay if Derek--let's say Derek was like hooking up with all the girls sliding into his DM's and being like "hey Derek, go out with me." I mean... Probably like not a great look, but also not necessarily taking advantage of women.
Quinn: I genuinely think that's like, a real thing to be concerned about, if you think someone is abusing their power--
Jhanelle: Exactly.
Quinn: --as a semi-celebrity and all that stuff. And you know, sometimes there are adult women who just want to get with somebody and like it's fine and they have complete agency in the situation. It's--it would be very different if he was like--if someone on the show is like sliding into someone's DMs and like initiating something, especially like trying to pursue younger fans and stuff like that. That would be like a hard stop, no no no.
Jhanelle: Yeah. Yeah, so that's what was confusing is like the evidence that--like there was, there's definitely context and situations in which that would be inappropriate, but the evidence--the "evidence" that JPJ was presenting didn't seem that he was claiming that any of those situations happened.
Quinn: And I can also see why like, because the point--well, he did take it really far. There is a--because if the message is just like "Tayshia this guy is like not who you think he is. He's actually like sleeping with all these women and that's not the kind of guy you want to date," that is something--
Jhanelle: Yeah, I think that would have been a fair message.
Quinn: --but then he took it really far and then he was like "also he's a terrible person" and all this kind of stuff like, well, you gotta, you got to stick to your message, dude. You're really muddying the waters here.
Jhanelle: Yeah, like I feel like if he had presented as like hey, like Derek views--like if he had presented it in that way like I don't know Derek's--I hate this word but like a player or something, that could have been an argument that he was substantiating but he took it to like, this guy is like...
Quinn: You know, he's the villain of the whole thing. And it's just [laughs] it's all very dumb. But all of the scenes were so funny because--
Jhanelle: They were so funny.
Quinn: Derek did not know what was going on. He was like, "why are you yelling at me?"
Jhanelle: Yes. So the best thing also was JPJ just kind of lost the thread some point during here, and just--every time he was just like yelling and getting really angry and at some point he's like, in this argument with Derek and he just says [imitating JPJ] "don't insult my intelligence, Derek."
Quinn: Which--that's what I hear in my dreams now.
Jhanelle: [laughs] Now I just want a tattoo of it. There was a way for this whole thing to be like, way more like intense and antagonistic and like truly like, "oh, this is like a bad situation, this whole accusations and arguments," but it was all presented in such a ludicrous way that I feel like in the end, it didn't matter. This entire argument didn't matter at all.
Quinn: Yeah, and in the end JPJ was even like "I may have exaggerated this somewhat." He was--I think he was basically like "the heat got to me."
Jhanelle: Yeah, but yeah now he and Tayshia got back together after the show, so.
Quinn: Yeah. Because in like one of the last episodes Tayshia ends up breaking up with him, she's like "I'm not ready for this," but then they get back together at the end of the show and apparently they're like, still together right now, so. Good for them?
Jhanelle: Yes. Yeah, but yeah, so that was that was the JPJ narrative. Can we take a brief moment? She's not an important character in this show, but I feel like she deserves recognition. Let's just take a moment for Tahzjuan.
Quinn: Yes! My girl.
Jhanelle: Tahzjuan is one of the--so sometimes they bring on this show, like people that only lasted one night on their Bachelor or Bachelorette season. So no one knows who this person is. No--people have barely spoken to them, but they bring them on the show. This girl named Tahzjuan was brought on the show and she was like a glorious fire.
Quinn: I... that was the best episode of this entire season, is Tahzjuan's episode.
Jhanelle: This episode almost entirely focused on her. She left after one week of the show. So she like lasted one episode.
Quinn: She was there for like 24 hours.
Jhanelle: Yes, she spent almost the entirety of her time on this show complaining about how hot it is on the beach, and I just felt spiritually connected to that.
Quinn: Oh my--yeah, she's like doing her interviews and she's like, [imitating desperation] "oh my God, is that a fan? Is that a fan?"
Jhanelle: So something not everyone knows is apparently, this beach is not--like nothing is air conditioned. Like the rooms aren't air conditioned, the bathrooms aren't air conditioned. There's only one room that is air conditioned and it is called the Boom Boom Room.
Quinn: Mmhmm.
Jhanelle: Where people enjoy each other's company.
Quinn: Yes, in the biblical sense.
Jhanelle: I just like--I just cannot possibly conceive of being in--where are they? Somewhere in Mexico, in the summer, in the middle of summer, with no air conditioning.
Quinn: It's just horrifically hot the whole time. And like no one else ever says anything about the heat which is, I mean... probably it's just like a combination of the editors not including it, and like, they're all like professional models and stuff. So they're like, just don't--they're not spending their time to planning about it. They're just like leaning into the glisten or whatever, I don't know what they're doing. But she's talking about how hot is which is so realistic like obviously it's so hot and everyone's miserable. That's why they're all making such a dumb decisions.
Jhanelle: Like can you imagine, can you imagine? This also brings more context in the getting engaged after three weeks. Like not only are they isolated and like, drunk half the time, they are also so hot.
Quinn: They all have heat exhaustion that's cooked their brain.
Jhanelle: Exactly. I don't even, I couldn't do it. Like I don't know how people just don't like make pacts with each other, like friendship packs that like "let's pretend to be a couple so we can go in the air conditioned room."
Quinn: Oh my God, yes. Okay, but the best--the peak of this whole season was in his episode, Tahzjuan and some other woman, who had don't remember her name--
Jhanelle: Haley.
Quinn: Yes. Okay, Haley--they're both interested in John Paul Jones, it was like this bizarre fever dream of an episode. They both like go on a date with John Paul Jones and Tahzjuan... [laughs]
Jhanelle: Oh my God.
Quinn: Just looks at her and she's like, she's like "John Paul Jones and I, we're both seagulls. You're a pigeon." And Haley, who's a human being, is like "what? What does that even mean?"
Jhanelle: And she provides no more context to this.
Quinn: No, there's nothing. Which is just delightful. And then at the end of the series when they're doing the wrap up interviews and all this stuff, Haley's like "what was that about?" and Tahzjuan was like, "you know, I was just really hot."
Jhanelle: Like they tried to make this, make it like a dramatic like fight moment and they're in their After The Final Rose and she's just like "ehh." And then Haley's like "ehh." And then it's over. Also one thing that was beautiful about this, that Haley points out, is seagulls are like the pigeons of the ocean. Like they're just as bad as pigeons.
Quinn: Yeah! It's not a good thing to be a seagull either.
Jhanelle: But yes, Tahzjuan. I just love that she spent the--she was very good. She like broke the fourth wall a lot, like talked about how hot it was, when they she went on her date with John Paul Jones, he like went to start eating and she's like "no." And he's like "what?" And she's like "you're not supposed to eat the date food--
Quinn: Oh my god.
Jhanelle: --like everyone knows that."
Quinn: That was so weird!
Jhanelle: On The Bachelor shows, they never really show anyone eating like a whole meal. I think they did in like the very first season, but then it's bad for filming and chewing sounds and things like that. So now they feed--like they'll give you food before dates and then you go and just like sit in front of food.
Quinn: That's... the most American thing I've ever heard.
Jhanelle: Yes! You're not supposed to eat the date food, but no one ever talks about it because no one tries to do it. But John Paul Jones will not be, will not be beholden to such imaginary rules.
Quinn: Wow. I love Tahzjuan.
Jhanelle: I just want her back on my TV.
Quinn: Okay. I have a couple people I want to talk about before we like, get to our grand finale here, but very briefly, just like, shout out to Old MacDonald--Matt Donald.
Jhanelle: Oh my god--
Quinn: Bad shout out.
Jhanelle: Old Matt Donald. It is fascinating. So he was on Hannah Brown's Bachelorette season for like a hot second, he left the first night. But everyone thought he was really charming and like seemed really sweet and dorky on that show and was looking forward to seeing him possibly on Paradise. Never has a fall of grace--a fall from grace happened so quickly. Like technically even faster than Blake's, Blake's at least was like a few weeks long.
Quinn: He truly just showed himself to be unbelievably strange and shallow.
Jhanelle: Yes, it was fascinating. So Old Matt Donald comes on the beach and he--
Quinn: His name is just Matt Donald by the way, but is only exclusively referred to as Old Matt Donald, because it's his Instagram handle.
Jhanelle: Yes, so he comes to the beach and he kind of like starts a thing with Sydney who--Sydney, this show does not does not do her justice and justice for Sydney.
Quinn: Yeah.
Jhanelle: But so he starts a thing with this woman Sydney, and they're kind of hitting it off, and then a new girl comes to the beach. This woman named Bri, who as Old--as Matt Donald will remind you several times, a supermodel.
Quinn: She's literally a supermodel.
Jhanelle: Yeah like she's actually like a legitimate model. But she's gorgeous, great. And Old Matt Donald, wow. He is just entranced by this supermodel. So he strikes up a thing with her. So now he's kind of juggling Sydney and Bri and it is the men's week to give roses, because this show is almost entirely heteronormative. So... and we'll get to that, but so. He's like, oh, "who am I gonna give the rose to? On one hand is Sydney, who's great, and we can talk about anything... But Bri's a supermodel. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if I was going home with a supermodel girlfriend? A supermodel."
Quinn: And look, I know we've exaggerated some things on this episode so far. This is almost verbatim what he said, this is not an exaggeration at all. He literally said these words.
Jhanelle: It was so horrible. So he ends up giving the rose to the supermodel. Then there's this horrible moment where he like tries to like, before Sydney goes home, talk to her and be like, "you'll find someone."
Quinn: Oh my God.
Jhanelle: That's very deeply upsetting.
Quinn: Sydney gets the last laugh, though. On her way home in the van, she says "she's going to leave him." [both laugh]
Jhanelle: Yeah, she's like "she's gonna go," she's like "Bri's not going to stay with him." Spoiler alert: Sydney was correct. So the next day, Old Matt Donald's still over the moon with himself. He's like, you know, "I really know I made the right decision. I mean, I picked the supermodel." So he's very happy and pleased with himself. Bri is starting to get annoyed. Because this man keeps calling her a supermodel over and over to her face, and it seems to be the only thing he ever says to her. So Bri goes to talk to Matt Donald who's very excited to see his supermodel girlfriend. And Bri breaks up with him, very explicitly saying "I think you're really shallow."
Quinn: It was so great.
Jhanelle: "I want this to be more about just looks." So she goes up to him and he starts with a "supermodel." He's like, "oh supermodel" and she literally is like cringing and was like, "there you go again... supermodel." And it was just one of the most divine moments of like, retribution on this show.
Quinn: Yeah. I mean she was there briefly but her star shone so brightly in shutting down this ridiculous man. Who by the way, when he was not talking about how Bri's a supermodel, was almost always talking about his mother.
Jhanelle: But like not in like a oh, "my mother is really important to me" way like that's sweet, in a "I can't kiss you because my mom's gonna see." Like right before he starts kissing someone. And like, that... general rule. Don't bring up your mom so much when you know, you're on a date. it's not the move.
Quinn: He truly is just like a 15 year old boy in every way.
Jhanelle: Genuinely and it was just glorious that Bri explicitly was like, "I want--I feel like this is all about looks for you. I'd like to be with someone who's not just focused on my looks." And Matt Donald is shaken because the supermodel is walking away.
Quinn: So I want to get to sort of like the big finale engagement couples. But before then I think we should talk a little bit about Caelynn and Dean.
Jhanelle: Oh my goodness.
Quinn: Which is--okay. I felt very represented by Caelynn because I too am a dumbass b[censor beep], so--[laughs]
Jhanelle: Listen, I didn't understand any of this but also I completely understood why she made all these choices.
Quinn: Caelynn has been a hot mess since day one, she was like involved in that whole thing with Blake and she was really upset about it. And then she started dating Dean who's like... one of the bad boys of the Bachelor I guess. And he rolls up and he's got a mustache now and he lives in a van by choice and he's like, "I, you know, I'm just a free spirit. I just want to like, travel the country in my van and not shower and have a mustache" and Caelynn's like "that's hot." So they're dating and they're super into each other. And then surprise, surprise--
Jhanelle: It's her birthday.
Quinn: Oh my God yeah. It's her birthday and he throws her birthday party and she's like, "I'm so happy. Wow." And he's like "also, I'm dumping you." Literally dumps her on her birthday and he's like, "yeah, so you know how I said I just want to be a free spirit and like, wander the country? So I meant that and I'm going to leave now and go do that because I... have commitment issues" and she's like, "oh my God, I didn't see this coming."
Jhanelle: Well, they had explicitly just previously discussed this. They had had a previous discussion where he did the whole like "yeah, you know, just... you'd be so miserable being my girlfriend. I'd be such a bad boyfriend like, you know?" And to him I'm sure that was him saying "I don't want to be your boyfriend." To her, I'm sure it was him saying "I would love to be your boyfriend, but think I'll do a bad job at it." So, you know, miscommunication there. So the birthday breakup happens and Dean goes off to live his hashtag van life. And Caelynn begins dating Connor... of Connor and Whitney fame.
Quinn: Yeah, who's just... truly not that interesting. But that does lead to maybe the best scene in the whole show which is... [laughs] A couple weeks later, or like probably like four days later in the actual timeline of this beach, Dean comes back. So Dean like, has shaved his mustache to show that he's a changed man. And he rolls back into the show and he shows up and he takes Caelynn aside and he's like "Caelynn. I love you. I made a mistake. Let's be together." Cut to [laughs] Connor sitting on a bench with like, all the women of the show. They're just like--and they're all openly talking about, they're like, "oh my God Dean's back, Caelynn really loves him, they have such a connection, I can't believe this." And Connor's sitting right there and then... He's like, "you know, Caelynn and I have had a really stable relationship this past week or two. Like I think we have a really strong foundation and I'm not worried about this at all. Like Dean really broke her heart and she's not going to go back to him." And Kristina goes, "have you ever met Dean?" And he goes "no," and she just laughs at him.
Jhanelle: Laughs! [both laugh] Context here, apparently Kristina dated Dean from previous Paradise. And then after the show.
Quinn: Oh, oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. So Kristina knows. She knows.
Jhanelle: She just starts--she just starts like cackling.
Quinn: Oh, it's so beautiful.
Jhanelle: Connor is such--she's just like Connor's just so unaware. That this is not going to turn out well for him up.
Quinn: Yeah, and I would feel bad about this, except Caelynn and Connor were probably dating for about 48 hours. So how upset can you really be? But I don't know this. This--everything is ridiculous on this show. And surprise surprise, Caelynn chooses to leave with Dean, and now they're in love in a van. Allegedly.
Jhanelle: Yeah, and they're apparently still traveling in a van together. So, you know, that's a choice.
Quinn: That is a choice... TBD what happens there. But according to Instagram, they're very happy. But this is the thing is like... So Dean breaks her heart, is a demonstrated kind of like, bad boy Playboy kind of figure, all this stuff, and then he rolls back and he's like "actually I've changed. I love you. Like I want to comm--like come with me on this van, I will make this a happy life for you," all this stuff and logically she absolutely should not go with him. But I was watching this and I was like, I know myself, and I would go. Because I make bad decisions.
Jhanelle: Exactly. Also same. I'm watching this and I'm like this, oh my gosh, it would be so dumb to go with him. And then I'm like, mm, I would do it.
Quinn: I would 100% do it! I make terrible decisions!
Jhanelle: I'm like, yeah. Like I don't know but whole the whole van life thing like, you know it's a bad idea, but like you'll do it anyway.
Quinn: What a time. You know, I really hope that best for them because I just like happy people being happy, but we'll see, we'll see. We'll find out on Instagram eventually.
Jhanelle: Yes.
Quinn: So I think that we've already talked about Dylan and Hannah, really not that much interesting stuff going on there, but... I kind of want to talk about like, Clay and Nicole, and Chris and Katie all together, because I think they're like in very similar kind of places.
Jhanelle: Yeah. So here we have, so we have Clay who is like a former football player who previously dated another Bachelor Nation girl for like eight months, and then broke up with her. Apparently never said "I love you" and seems to think that that means they weren't in a serious relationship.
Quinn: Men really be out here, just doing the least.
Jhanelle: Yeah, he's very much on that like "yeah, we like were looking at houses and talking about kids and dating for eight months, but did I say I love you? Then why would you think we were in a serious relationship?" So he's now dating Nicole who--Nicole does not show her best self at points in the season, when Clay's old girlfriend comes on the show. Nicole's very unhappy about it. And very threatened.
Quinn: I mean if you had been dating someone for roughly 10 days and a woman that he dated for eight months showed up, I'd probably also feel a little threatened--but I would have handled it more privately than Nicole.
Jhanelle: Exactly. Nicole's very open about disliking Angela for the crime of having previously dated Clay.
Quinn: Yeah, which is really unfair because... what Nicole says would be rude and bad regardless, but Angela like, truly is not even trying to threaten their relationship. She's just there to look hot and then annoy Clay.
Jhanelle: Exactly and something that keeps coming up is like, "why would she come to the beach? Like why would she want to be on the beach of her ex-boyfriend unless she's trying to get him back?" You get paid to be on the show. Like I think that's a very important context here.
Quinn: And she knows she has the power when she comes on the beach because she's like "look, I know that I'm super hot. I know that being here is going to really bother Clay and like, I can just date guys and have a good time and get paid." She does not feel threatened or like worried about it. And so I'm like yeah, she's just there.
Jhanelle: Yeah. So ultimately this pans out to be nothing, but it does lead into the fascinating narrative of... Nicole for some reason believing that Clay is going to get engaged to her at the end of the show. At the end of these three weeks. Against all odds and evidence. [laughs] Clay does not want to get engaged to her. So she breaks up with him.
Quinn: This is probably the weirdest plot line of the whole show, because there's two competing things here that I find equally strange in different ways. One, that anyone would expect to get engaged after three weeks is ludicrous on its face. So like on one hand, Clay really makes a lot of sense here when he says "I'm not ready to be engaged yet, but I am interested in dating," and then--but Nicole's like "well, you're not demonstrating a commitment to me and I see you have past commitment issues. And so if you're not ready for a real commitment, then like, I'm out and I don't want to date." Which is like, a valid reason to break up, if you reach a certain point in a relationship--not a three-week point in a relationship, but a point nonetheless. But like--the other thing about this is, in the canon of the show, they have spent the previous night together privately. Why did they at no point talk about what they were going to do on the beach the next day?
Jhanelle: Yeah, that was very fascinating that she's like "you know, I don't know if he's gonna propose to me" and like I feel like you should know. It shouldn't be like a complete--like if there's a date set for the proposal to happen, you should be pretty clear on whether it will be happening or not.
Quinn: Yeah, and that's the point in which the fantasy of the show really falls apart because like, obviously that part's all staged because if it wasn't then this would be... bonkers, because there's no way they couldn't talk about it.
Jhanelle: Exactly.
Quinn: But in the canon of the show, it's ridiculous--and it's--the show makers know what they're doing, because you feel really bad for Nicole, despite the fact that this whole situation is ludicrous on its face, you do still feel bad for someone who ostensibly was expecting a commitment and doesn't get one.
Jhanelle: And I will say in kind of Nicole, in a little bit of Nicole's defense here, Clay really seems to have a problem with the whole acting like you're deeply committed and then being like "no wait what?"
Quinn: Yeah. No, he definitely does have issues as well. And does--needs to figure out his whole commitment situation or at least how to clearly communicate his level of commitment.
Jhanelle: Exactly.
Quinn: Pull yourself together Clay. And then--I think like the other side of this coin is Chris and Katie--
Jhanelle: Oy.
Quinn: Who have been dating like, really since the beginning--okay. A little background on Chris though, first--so this is my first season of Bachelor, watching it I didn't know who Chris was but apparently he's been like seven different seasons of like The Bachelorette and Bachelor in Paradise and all this stuff and so he... They all, whenever they're talking to the camera, they all have tag lines that have their name, their age, and the season of The Bachelor that they were previously on. So his is like four lines long. And then throughout the show, they keep changing it where it's then it just says "Bachelor veteran," like "Chris: old person." Like "Chris: Hopefully his last time here." Like all of this stuff.
Jhanelle: They had such a good time coming up with those chyrons.
Quinn: Very good. But yeah, but Chris and Katie have been dating and they've had a lot of back and forth and blah blah blah. Kind of on and off kind of thing. But then at the end, Katie's super committed, really wants to get engaged, and Chris is kind of wavering.
Jhanelle: This situation is really sad and also very complex. So when the show starts you very much get the impression that the reason Chris is back on the show again is because he... He owns a bunch of restaurants in Chicago, I guess. Yeah, it's very clear he's on the show to promote like, to promote his restaurant in some way because they film his entire opening in his restaurant with him being like "this is my restaurant. Where you can come. And eat food." So I suspect, it doesn't seem like he necessarily was coming into this show thinking that he would end up in like a legit relationship. But he does and that is, it's--they kind of have ongoing conflict throughout the show of like getting on the right page. Where at some--at one point the conflict is that he's more committed than she is, or he thinks that he is, but by the end of the show, and by the reunions specifically it very much... They're like not in a great place. And Katie talks a lot at the After The Final Rose about like--that she's trying so hard and like giving so much and just like not getting anything back and it's really heartbreaking.
Quinn: It's really sad because that is... and I mean God knows whether or not--how real that is, but that is a very real relationship situation that happens to a lot of people, where one person in the relationship really loves the other and is trying really hard to make it work, but they're not getting enough back, but they love the person so they don't want to leave and they keep trying and it's like, that's something that can... really turn into an emotionally abusive relationship very easily and it really makes your heart go out for her.
Jhanelle: So that's kind of where their story ends on the show. They are still together off the show. They say they're in a much better place and I hope that is true.
Quinn: I do as well. To end this on a more upbeat note rather than the potentially sad reality of their relationship, I just Googled "Chris Bukowski restaurants." And the first thing that comes up is an article from Chicago magazine that says "Bachelor in Paradise's Chris apparently runs a bad Chicago bar." Apparently, he's got a bar in Chicago. It's called Bracket Room and it's poorly reviewed.
Jhanelle: Can we still go though?
Quinn: We can make this happen, and check out the bar. Maybe he'll be there.
Jhanelle: One yelper complained: "the soup took an hour???" Question mark, question mark, question mark.
Quinn: You know, maybe they had to make the soup from scratch. [both laugh] I mean, it's got a three point seven stars on Google Maps, which is not phenomenal, but not terrible.
Jhanelle: I've been to worse.
Quinn: I've yeah, I've definitely been to worse.
Jhanelle: Well so I think it's now time for our grand finale couple.
Quinn: Absolutely. Okay! This is... we're gonna have to go back to the beginning with us. So. Week one, we roll in with Demi ,who I guess was kind of a villain on previous seasons. I've never seen previous seasons. So like I don't know, she seemed... gently mean on the season, she would make fun of people, but she seemed like--
Jhanelle: Mhmm, she was more mean on her season.
Quinn: Yeah. So I don't know about that, but we roll into Demi and like, like her opening shot, basically, she's like "hey, so, I'm dating a woman." That's like the establishing beat of her character. And it's this whole thing where she was like, "yeah, so like I haven't been open with my sexuality in the past, but I actually am open to dating people of all genders." She does not use any specific word to describe her sexuality on the show, which I thought was interesting. I don't know if that was her choice, whether she like chooses not to define herself in real life, or if the producers told her she wasn't allowed to say bi or pansexual. Unclear. We'll never know. But then she was like "so I'm actually dating a woman right now, but I'm not sure about it. And so I like want to go on the show and just sort of like explore my options and see what's happening," AKA, get that money.
Jhanelle: Respect.
Quinn: But sure, that's the story we've been told, she wants to like explore herself and her love life a little more thoroughly on the show. And that also like, no one on the show apparently knows that she is dating a woman, or that her sexuality is not heterosexual.
Jhanelle: So she goes on the show and begins to date Derek, of Derek JPJ, of "do not insult my intelligence" Derek.
Quinn: Before any of that happens.
Jhanelle: Before any of this happens, so they have like, actually like a really like, it's presented like a really good kind of fledgling relationship, hitting it off, really comfortable with each other. But Demi is still missing the woman that she's dating back at home and starts opening up to some of the other cast members on the show. Some of them that she is actually friends with in real life.
Quinn: Basically so, there's almost like two competing narratives going on about this, and one is the narrative that Demi presents for herself, which is basically like "I came on the show because I wasn't sure about my relationship. But the more that I'm here, the more time I spend with Derek I realized like that I actually really love this woman back home, and I can't stop thinking about her and I think that I made a mistake and I should actually just be with her." Then the show is like... kind of like... not explicitly but there's almost this implicit push towards like, "she's figuring out her sexuality and like this is a journey she's going on." Demi never says any such thing. She seems very comfortable in her sexuality.
Jhanelle: She's pretty clear.
Quinn: It's like more about like these specific people that she is, she's trying to figure out like who her soul mate is, or whatever words you want to use for that but it's not about like, oh do I want to date men or women? It's like, she's comfortable dating whoever, it's just a matter of like she's not sure who her specific person is. But this all leads to a truly wild thing that the show has never done before. In that... she breaks up with Derek and says like, "you're a great guy, but I actually just like can't stop thinking about this woman. And I think I need to be with her. Her name is Kristian." What you would think would happen is then she would go home and like, be with Kristian. No no no. They bring Kristian to the beach. Kristian is a real person. She has never been on The Bachelorette--Bachelor, Bachelorette before, she has little to no interest in being on a reality show, but she seems to genuinely love Demi and wants to be there to be with her which is so wild.
Jhanelle: Kristian is... She's just amazing. She is one of the best characters of the series because she very clearly does not want to be on a show. Like she very clearly wants to be where Demi is but does not actually want to be on a reality show and because of that, she's just a real person. She's like not, clearly like not super comfortable on camera. She doesn't involve herself in any drama because she's not trying to get more air time. She's just great. So she and Demi end up getting together again, like they reaffirm their love for each other. They then are not that big a feature of the rest of the show because the show is kind of structured as once you're happy, you don't get a lot of camera time anymore. But they still managed to have the like most emotionally mature our relationship on the show every--anytime that they're on screen.
Quinn: Her coming on the show has very funny in a way to me because when you look at this... So Demi like goes on the show, starts dating someone, has a real connection with them, and says actually like "I'm dating someone back home and now they're going to come on this show." And if she had done that with another man, she would have been painted as like, this horrific villain. One, they would have never had the guy come on the show, which we'll get to in a sec. But that's like not--that's a mean thing to do! But the thing is that every single character on the show and the producers of the show. They're all thinking like, "I'm not going to be the one who's painted as homophobic for this. [Jhanelle laughs] You will not be able to edit me into looking homophobic for speaking out against Demi being mean to Derek. No way in hell. I will be 100% supportive of Demi and Kristian's relationship and you will not catch me in this!"
Jhanelle: That is, I will admit, that is definitely, definitely true. Because it genuinely would have been completely fair for Derek to be like, "this is kind of like, mean--it's kind of like messed of you to have not told me that you were like, even if you weren't exclusive, pretty seriously dating someone before we got this deep our relationship." Like that would have been really fair for him to feel--he could not do that.
Quinn: No, because he knows, then so everyone was like "wow Demi this is so brave of you, this is really cool... congratulations on living your truth," and I'm sitting here like, okay. We could have handled this a little better. But it's also, I mean--with the meta context of what this show is, like obviously this was pre-planned from the beginning, and they needed the sort of drama to drive it to that point. So take that with a grain of salt, for all we know, Derek was in on this from the very beginning, all that good stuff. Also like, this genuinely was a very cool thing that The Bachelor did. Because the whole--the show is so wildly heteronormative, they had to change the rules for them. Because like the whole thing is that at the end of each week, the one gender of person like gets the rose and chooses the other person. It's like, if you go on The Amazing Race, they don't have to the change the rules if you're gay, you know? So weird. So they just change it to just like Demi gave out roses during the men's week because they all know who they she was giving her rose to anyway. They're like, okay but sure. So this, I have an innovation that I think would make this show much more interesting regardless of sexuality, which is that at the beginning of every week, they draw names out of a hat of who gets the roses that week. And so then there's like, much more scheming.
Jhanelle: Ooh, I like that one, yeah.
Quinn: Because then you have to like create alliances between couples and all this stuff to make sure everyone gets to stay on the show. I think that would be fun. Potentially goes against the facade that it's just about finding love and all that and more, it's about more about like reality show mechanics. I think it'd be fun. Anyway--
Jhanelle: Mmhmm.
Quinn: This show, like for something that has been so aggressively heterosexual and for the most part like... Just very sort of like Middle America, White, Christian, straight, all this kind of stuff, like this step of explicitly choosing to--it's not like two people just started dating on the beach and the producers were like "okay!" Like the choice to bring this couple and to showcase it as a very emotionally healthy couple, just like--well actually, way more emotionally healthy than every other couple on the beach actually, but just like as a normal couple on the beach, was very cool. And I mean--spoiler, like not like you couldn't guess this, they get engaged at the end.
Jhanelle: It is so sweet. Oh my God.
Quinn: It was so sweet! And you get to see these--
Jhanelle: And they're the only ones I believe.
Quinn: Yeah, because I think they're the only people have known each other for more than a month. So you're like, okay, yeah. But yeah, you get to like see these two beautiful queer women get this beautiful engagement on live--on television at the end of the show and it's like wow, that's so beautiful.
Jhanelle: Oh my gosh, and also all of Kristian's like all white outfits. I was like, yes, these are all amazing.
Quinn: Oh my God, yeah.
Jhanelle: But yeah, so. It was, it was definitely, like I know that like in the kind of Bachelor world some people were like, "oh like if you're going, if you're going to be with someone who's like not on the show, you should have to go home. Like this isn't the rules." Which I mean, I guess it's technically isn't but all these rules are also made up. These rules are all fictional and if they have to--if they're ever going to have any non-heterosexual couple on the show they have to bend the rules because the entire premise of the show is based upon like, a man and a woman getting engaged.
Quinn: Yeah, and staying chaste and pure. Anyway--
Jhanelle: Until the fantasy suites.
Quinn: Until the fantasy suites.
Jhanelle: Where they have long conversations about their hopes and dreams.
Quinn: Yeah. But they were very cool couple and they were also like the--at one point they have a genuine, a mature relationship conflict where Demi feels very self-conscious and insecure about being affectionate in public--sort of in general, but especially with a woman because she feels like people are looking at her and she doesn't--she just like is not as comfortable being like, publicly queer and all this stuff. And like Kristian is very comfortable and clearly has been out a lot longer and is very physically affectionate with her friends and stuff like that, so it makes Demi feel insecure. And it's this it's this whole thing and they like talk it out and it's a very real relationship conflict that real people have in the real world as opposed to like the BS that mostly goes on this show and you're like--
Jhanelle: Mmhmm, yes.
Quinn: Wow! Wow, look at these people.
Jhanelle: I know. They were they were like the saving graces of this like, dumpster fire of a season.
Quinn: Yeah, and they get to get engaged on the beach, like Demi proposes to Kristian on the beach and it's so beautiful. And then in the After The Rose interview thing Kristian, like, re-proposes to her so they both get these beautiful engagement rings!
Jhanelle: I loved that!
Quinn: It was so nice.
Jhanelle: It was so beautiful.
Quinn: Oh my God.
Jhanelle: It was the perfect cap to the season. They were great.
Quinn: Oh my God. And I'm so glad--I mean I had no idea going into this that this would be like, the first queer couple on screen in Bachelor history would be happen to be the first season that I watched but I was like hell yeah, picked right!
Jhanelle: Yeah. It was good. It was a good one.
Quinn: It's a fun time.
Jhanelle: Wait, so I--so now that we've covered kind of all the major points of this show, I would love to hear what your thoughts are, with this being your first Bachelor experience. Are you going to be back?
Quinn: I'm not--I haven't decided yet. There were a couple things of the series that really struck me. That we haven't covered yet. One of them is that no one ever talks about anything on this show besides relationships, to a point where it starts to feel very creepy. They're only ever talking about people they want to date. If they're talking to someone they're dating, it's about their relationship. I think I counted maybe three times total on the whole show that someone is talking about something that's not an interpersonal relationship, which is... wild. Like they must be talking about like their hobbies and stuff off camera, but it's just---
Jhanelle: I think they do.
Quinn: In a show that is so stretched out to be so long, you would think they can include some conversations about movies they like, I don't know. I guess that's not good television.
Jhanelle: Not being on this show, I will just give my hypothesis that like, they have to keep it focused on like just the relationships so that you... to bring you into the whole world of like these are real relationships and it's not all happening in three weeks.
Quinn: So overall I would say I would not recommend watching this show by yourself. I think that would be... a very weird experience that would not be that fun. I would recommend watching a show with other people because I think... even though we weren't physically in the same place watching it together I think watching it and like, talking to you about it and sometimes like live-texting it to each other was really fun. And that is why--I think that's really why people like the Bachelor so much, like it's very cool water cooler show, like people watch it, people talk about it. And it is--there's so much to talk about because it's just bonkers the whole way through that I think that's very fun. I'm not sure if--I might try to watch, like, The Bachelor or The Bachelorette? I'm not sure if I'll feel the same way about it because it seems a lot less interesting when you don't have like... because, okay. The thing that I appreciated about the show is that for the most part there's not the same kind of like, fighting between people. Sometimes men would fight each other, sometimes physically, but especially like the women, it was very rare that two people were actually competitive with each other about relationships. For the most part, it was like, people seem to really be friends and to be enjoying each other's company while dating other people. And the whole concept of the Bachelor, Bachelorette is like everybody's dating one person so seems like it's going to be a lot more kind of competitive in a way that I'm not sure I would vibe with.
Jhanelle: Yeah, I'd say definitely I agree with all of that. I think that Bachelor and Bachelorette are such a distinct experience than Bachelor in Paradise, it's really something you have to like give it a try and see how you feel about it.
Quinn: I might give it a try, we'll see. I especially think--I think I would like the Bachelorette more than the Bachelor because... while they both are just absurd concepts, watching like--like I don't know, they unveiled the new Bachelor on the last episode of Bachelor in Paradise, and I haven't seen--like I don't know who this guy is, but... he doesn't seem that interesting. So I think watching 30 beautiful women try to date him is going to be really aggravating to me.
Jhanelle: I loved--a former Bachelor did a tweet and he's like "remember you guys, everyone said that my season was going to be boring and uninteresting. And they were right."
[both laugh]
Quinn: But yeah. But I will say I did enjoy this experience of watching... I can't say it's a good show, but I can say it's a fun show.
Jhanelle: "It is a fun show" should be the ad line for this.
Quinn: Yeah. What were your overall conclusions from your first season of Bachelor in Paradise?
Jhanelle: I think... one, it was definitely more of a commitment because it's four hours a week. So at times I was like oh, need to--
Quinn: It's so long, oh my God.
Jhanelle: Need to get caught up. I thought it was fun. I thought, I thought it was like a more fun show in the sense of... I get really into Bachelor and Bachelorette with like the drama but this it was more just like so insane that you were like "what's going to happen next? I don't know." I would say another thing is, I would definitely watch it again only--but only if I had watched the previous Bachelor and Bachelorette seasons because I think it was... like going into the show, like knowing more of a context, like made it a lot smoother and easier to get into it.
Quinn: Yeah, not having seen the previous seasons is kind of like watching the show on expert mode. Like they do not make any attempts to catch you up.
Jhanelle: It is very--it's a really short airing, like it areas in the summer, like six weeks, so it's definitely I think targeted more towards keeping some of the Bachelor fans like on ABC, on like watching ABC as opposed to trying to capture an audience.
Quinn: Yeah. Well, it certainly was a fun adventure.
Jhanelle: Yeah.
Quinn: And this has been a fun adventure talking to you about it.
Jhanelle: Yes, thank you, thank you Quinn. Thank you for joining, joining this Bachelor roller coaster.
Quinn: Yeah. So we'll be doing more episodes of this show about other stuff, not more reality television, but just sort of things in the same wheelhouse. Some upcoming titles include the live-action Aladdin movie--
Jhanelle: Amazing.
Quinn: Which we went to see together and was one of the best movie-going experiences of my entire life, I cannot wait to talk to you about it.
Jhanelle: The iconic Christmas Prince series, the best movies on television.
Quinn: Get ready for our holiday series about the Christmas Prince, upcoming third movie coming out. Oh my God.
Jhanelle: There's magic and baby. Can't wait.
Quinn: There's a curse, right?
Jhanelle: Yes, there's a curse!
Quinn: Oh my God. Folks? You're in for a wild ride. And I just want to say here at the end, why is the show called Young Bopping Twenty-Somethings, you might ask? Since that title has nothing to do with movies or television or anything we're talking about? The only reason why it's called that is because that's something Jhanelle says all the time. And I figured that encapsulates our fun spirits, in creating this show, not taking ourselves too seriously, and just really diving into the best that's being made in movies and television today. So thank you for listening.
[theme music comes up behind Quinn speaking and then continues past the dialogue, going out one instrument at a time]
Jhanelle: Thank you!
