The Venice Biennale

Quinn: Hello and welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. I’m Quinn Rose and I didn't go to art school, but I love learning about art everyday anyway.

Betty: And I'm Betty. I also didn't go to art school, but I also really love learning about art and the history of art and a lot of other things that has to do with art, which I may talk about today.

Quinn: This is actually a really special time of year for the podcast because it is membership drive time, which means that we will be having a very special bonus episode coming out soon about a fun topic, but we're going to talk about that more at the end. And just get going with our regular episode first. So Betty, take it away.

Betty: Today's episode is going to, we're going to break it up into two parts because there's a lot to talk about and there's kind of two aspects of this topic I want to talk about. And the topic is actually the Venice Biennale, which is happening right now. This year is the 59th edition of the Venice Biennale, and it started on April 23rd. And it's going until November 27th. Obviously I'm not going to go see it. I don't have plans to go to Venice, even though I would love to. But it is a, it's a pretty important event in the art world. And there's quite a long history of it. It's been going on for 127 years. So I thought for this episode, I would talk about its history. What's been happening over the last 127 years and kind of actually why it's important because I feel like it's one of those things that a lot of people might have heard about. And I definitely knew about it, but I actually didn't know… I couldn't really tell you why it was important until I started researching, you know, its history. And then we can spend the following episode talking about this year, 2022’s exhibition.

Quinn: Yeah. You told me what the topic was going to be today right before we started recording. And I was like, hmm. Am I supposed to know what that is?

Betty: Yeah. Sorry. I guess I should've started with Quinn, have you heard of the Venice Biennale? If you haven’t, that is totally okay.

Quinn: I really haven’t. I'm so excited to learn. Apparently there's a whole thing going on for like half the year and I don't know anything about it.

Betty: Yeah, that's totally okay. And again, honestly, if you had asked me before researching this, what is the Venice Biennale? I probably could have told you it's an art thing that happens in Venice, I think every year. And that would have been all I could have told you, and that would have been wrong because it actually happens every other year, which is why it's called a Biennale, it means bi-annual.

Quinn: Oh, those Italians.

Betty: I know, right? So it's this big art exhibition that happens in Venice. There is a main site that is the exhibition. It's kind of like, you know how there's a world's fair, or there's like an expo world's fair?

Quinn: Oh yeah. I've heard of them.

Betty: Yeah, so it's like the art version of that, kind of. So it happens, there’s a location it happens in, but then there's like a lot of ancillary galleries and shows and events that happens all around Venice and yeah, it goes on for like half the year in Venice every other year. And actually, so it's an art exhibition, mostly. Tt has on the, currently it’s happening on the odd years—well, actually, sorry, up until recently, it's been happening on the odd years, but because of COVID—

Quinn: I was going to ask about that.

Betty: Yeah. And so now it was, this was supposed to be in 2021. So now it's in 2022. I don't know if they're going to keep going with the even numbers going forward, but maybe, I don't know. But actually since 1980 on the other alternating year, they do a Venice Biennale architecture edition.

Quinn: Ooh.

Betty: So last year in 2021 was the architecture version and I presume next year in 2023 is going to be the architecture version again. I'm going to be focusing most of what I'll be talking about this part and the next part just about the art version. Because I'm thinking there could even be a part three next year when they're doing an architecture version of it.

Quinn: Hey, follow-up.

Betty: Exactly. So, yeah, cause again, even just the art portion of it, there’s a lot to talk about. And the architecture is kind of its own thing, which I think is why in the 80s—what’s it called when a TV show is going into a different…

Quinn: A spinoff.

Betty: A spinoff! Yeah. In the 80s, they were like, we're going to do a spin off. It's going to be the architecture edition.

Quinn: So how did this get started?

Betty: It got started kind of in a really interesting, or I think it's a pretty interesting way, in 1893. So this was almost 130 years ago, the city council of Venice proposed this show, which they at the time called it a National Artistic Exhibition, but it was meant to celebrate the Silver Anniversary of King Umberto, who was the king of Italy at the time. And his wife the Queen Margarita, that year was their 25th wedding anniversary. And I assume they really liked art. So the city council's gift to them was a national art exhibition.

Quinn: Oh, very Italian.

Betty: Yeah. So very nice, like, that's a very cool wedding present. 

Quinn: When is someone going to get me an art exhibition, you know?

Betty: Yeah. I know. It's like, I guess you might have to be the king and queen of a country. So it actually took them two years to plan it, which is why it didn't actually happen until the spring of 1895. So the first ever Venice Biennale was 1895. And I think at the time they just called it the International Art Exhibition of Venice. So it started then but kind of the inspiration for the type of art that they started in the beginning was the people who started the exhibition, they were inspired by this art movement called the Munich Secession. Which were a group of artists who basically, they kind of rejected the mainstream art movement in Munich at the time. So they kind of formed their own group. So they like seceded from the mainstream and were kind of doing their own thing. And so, you know, they were a little bit more experimental and things like that. So this show interestingly, even though it started in Italy and there were some Italian artists, there was actually a lot of German art. Cause I guess the city council or whoever started the show was just like really obsessed with this avant-garde German art at the time. So yeah, so that’s—so initially it wasn't really an international thing. Like it wasn't like they started with, we're going to invite people for all over the world. They kind of started with, we really like this German movement. Let's get some of their art in here. So it started with just Italy and Germany as far as I can tell.

Quinn: Okay, keeping it fairly local. 

Betty: Yeah. So, I mean, you know, technically it's international cause there's more than one country. 

Quinn: Yeah. Like that's international the way that things between the US and Canada are international.

Betty: It's like the baseball, is the World Series cause there's a Canadian team. So what was kind of interesting about this first exhibition was that they actually had over 200,000 visitors to this first exhibition. And for comparison, like the Venice Biennale now—it’s probably like the most popular, if not one of the most popular art fairs in the world. So these days it attracts like between 400,000 to 500,000 people, which is also a lot of people, but you know, back then it was already like half of what the attendance is today. So I think it started off as like a pretty big thing. And one thing that was interesting was even in the beginning, they were giving prizes to like the best whatever artworks in the show. But I think it was the people who were picking the best artwork were whoever like the committee members were who held the exhibition, but there actually was this really controversial painting that was in the show in the first year that was so controversial they actually removed it from the main exhibition and put it in a tiny little room where they didn't think anybody would go to, but then it actually became the most popular artwork of this entire show.

Quinn: Well, of course.

Betty: And that's, we all know if you, if you want something to gain attention, just ban it.

Quinn: What was the piece?

Betty: It’s by an artist named Giacomo Grosso and it's called Supreme Meeting. So it's a painting, in the middle there is a dead man in a coffin and he is surrounded by a whole bunch of nude female figures, and some are like leaning against the coffin. Some are looking at the man. And basically it's a dead guy surrounded by naked women, which I’m not shocked that, I guess in like the late 1800s, people were like, oh, this is…

Quinn: Scandalous?

Betty: Disturbing, yes, scandalous. So yeah, it ended up, so they put it away in this like little room, but it became really popular. And I think they ended up doing what's the like late 1800s equivalent of a People's Choice Award. And it won the popular award.

Quinn: Love your comparison to just an audience vote of being a People's Choice Award.

Betty: Yeah, well, it's like in their history it said, like it won a prize by popular referendum, which took place at the closing of the exhibition.

Quinn: And then they named it Boaty McBoatface. 

Betty: But what was actually really kind of sad about this is it was actually later sold to somebody who actually, or it was sold to someone in the United States who bought it and wanted to transport it to the US, but apparently during transport, there was a fire on the ship and it destroyed the painting.

Quinn: Oh no. That sucks.

Betty: Yeah, which is why this picture that I show you on Wikipedia is like a really low resolution pixelated version because I don't think there's a better picture of it, unfortunately. I think it's interesting to mention this because this kind of sets the tone in a way, like the Venice Biennale. I think one of the reasons why it became a big thing and it became important in the art world is it is known by, over the history with a number of controversial events that took place multiple times—not every year, but you know, like once every few years there's something that's like big that happens. Like this in comparison, you know, to scandals today is very low key, but you know, I'm sure for the late 1800s in Venice it's like, gasp! Naked women or something. 

Quinn: Well, naked non-biblical women, I guess.

Betty: Exactly, yeah.

Quinn: Wait, so they had, so they had this the first year and then, you know, we had our minor scandal as all good art shows should have, but then where they just like, that was great, let’s do it again in two years?

Betty: Yeah. I, based on what I can tell it, that is what happened. It was originally supposed to be just a wedding present, but they were just like, let's keep doing it. So like, I couldn't, I couldn't find anything that was like, that said anything in addition to that, it was just like, this was the first time and then it just kept going.

Quinn: That's great. Love something with momentum. 

Betty: Yeah. So, and then I think, I guess the next one didn't happen the following year. So it took another, I guess, maybe because it always took them two years to plan it. Then they started calling it the Biennale before it was happening every other year, so.

Quinn: Good way to lean into it.

Betty: Yeah, I’m going to assume it’s because it just took so long to plan, or maybe it was intentional. I don't know. 

Quinn: It does make more sense. I mean, I don't know how long it went on in the early days, but considering how long it goes, like the whole tourist season, basically, it sounds like in Italy, it makes sense that not have it every year, because then you’re just always doing it.

Betty: Yeah. That's true. That’s the thing when it's happening, if it's happening for six months at a time, then really you're just having it all the time. So yeah, so they start to have it every year and they were, they were still really into, you know, these German artworks and apparently like one of the—there was a really famous or a piece, I guess, that went on to become a really famous work of art was this piece called Judith II by Gustav Klimt and this one, so it's called Judith II because it's the second edition of his rendition of Judith and Holofernes. I think we've talked about it before.

Quinn: We have, I’ll link the episode.

Betty: So where lots of artists have depicted this biblical scene of Judith cutting off Holofernes’s head, it's very violent imagery, and Gustav Klimt, this is his second edition of it. And it was in this show. And apparently, yeah, this is an example of artworks that are really famous kind of like being presented at this show. I believe, I think initially it was not always artwork that's presented for the first time ever, but it just, it's an artwork that hasn't been presented in Italy before. I think that was just the rule of what gets accepted.

Quinn: I see, okay.

Betty: So they started, you know, with a lot of German art, but also included Italian. And basically starting at around the turn of the 20th century, so in 1901 that show, they started to include kind of more French artists. So I think this was when like French art was becoming, I want to say like up and coming, like I'm assuming that's kind of what's been happening at the time. So in 1901 they included a bunch of artworks by French artists like Mia and Auguste Rodin. So here's an example of a pretty famous Rodin piece, I think was they actually put 20 pieces of his work, like his sculptures in this show. There’s starting to be this interest in French art and in 1903, they actually started a section of the Biennale called the Salon des Refusés say, so it’s—sorry for my French, but it's the Salon of the Refused, which is people who are refused from the prestigious Paris Salon that year, then they displayed it at this show.

Quinn: That’s so petty.

Betty: Yeah. So I think one of the things about the way the Venice Biennale started was it was kind of like started by people who were like, here's some art that's kind of not really accepted by the mainstream, because again, they started with the Munich Secession, and then it's the, these are the people that weren’t good enough apparently for this snooty French salon. So we're going to show it in our cool trendy, new show, but as we'll see, then eventually, you know, this became the establishment and they started to refuse other people as well. And other people got angry.

Quinn: You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the establishment. 

Betty: Exactly. So yeah, so I think that's one of the reasons why it kind of started to gain momentum was because I guess it was a, it was a place where artists who couldn't get into these traditional institutions can be like, oh, I can show my work here. But what's funny is even in 1903, they still weren't accepting Impressionists. There were still no, that’s way too far. Like that's not, that’s too avant-garde even for us.

Quinn: We can't have those dirty nasty Impressionists in here.

Betty: Yeah, exactly. So this description went on to say, even by the following two years by 1907, they still weren't showing Impressionists, but this was when they started to include American artists for the first time.

Quinn: Oh god.

Betty: Yeah, I know. Scandalous. So I think John Singer Sargent was an example of an American artist who was included in the show in 1907 and apparently also won some award. So they yeah, so apparently American art was cool now, but it wasn't until 1910, that was when they started to show Impressionists. So they, I think there were some—Renoir is an example of an artist that was included for the first time in 1910. And then, so they were having more instances of the show until 1914, which is when World War I broke out. So basically the only times there was a pause in there being a Venice Biennale was between a World War I, World War II, and COVID-19.

Quinn: Yeah, that makes sense. Hard to have art exhibitions in Italy during World War II.

Betty: For sure. Especially at this time when it was also, you know, there's still a lot of German and Italian art. This was like the main focus for a really long time.

Quinn: Not the best time for German art, I would say.

Betty: Yeah. But what's interesting is even as early as 1914 there was a group of, there was already like another kind of scandal that happened where you know, they just a few years ago they were known as, oh, we accept all the people who couldn’t get into the Paris Salon, but then they actually refused a few hundred artists in 1914. So those artists who were refused, I think somewhere else in Venice held their own show called The Refused by the Venice Biennale. So a few years earlier, Venice Biennale held the Refused of the Paris salon. And then a few years later it's like, and this is what’s refused from the Venice Biennale.

Quinn: It’s turtles all the way down.

Betty: Yeah, exactly. In any case, this didn't go on for too long. And I think the, after that, I don't know. I think there were, there was less competition for them in Venice as far as we know. But the other interesting thing that happened around this time was that, so initially they just had these exhibition spaces and they kind of just, from what I read, it seems like they just put art up without really any formal arrangement or thought. But very quickly they realized it's actually, it's actually an art to display art. So like, you know, in terms of how art works with the interior design of the space and kind of like, you know, how, how different colors and finishes and things work with the paintings and things like that. So basically as early as the early 1900s, there started to be this really interesting relationship between art as well as the decoration and lighting and furnishings. And so going forward I think from like 1907, a lot of the pavilions actually then started to hire professional interior designers and architects to actually design the space that the art was supposed to go in.

Quinn: Yeah. Cause I mean, that's kind of the whole point of going to see art exhibitions and stuff is because of it's supposed to be a curated experience. It's not, we didn't just slap stuff on the walls places. And it's also like, that sounds to me like a lot closer to your comparison earlier to the World's Fair is having these like designated pavilions and really highly curated areas that are done within themes and like all of that good stuff.

Betty: Yeah, for sure. And I just kinda, I just threw in a picture in there and I couldn't find exactly what show it was from, but it was one of the ones from the early 1900s. And I'm hoping this wasn’t one of the examples of that they did put thought into this, but this picture seemed like they didn’t.

Quinn: Oh my God, what a cutting insult if this is one that they tried for.

Betty: I was like, I'm sorry. As a professional designer, I look at this and I'm like, I don't think you put too much design into this.

Quinn: There are museums like this, but they're usually museums that like there's, they're legally not allowed to move stuff around. Like the Gardner Museum.

Betty: Yeah. So maybe this was just the display style at the time. And me as a, somebody from over a hundred years later, I can't understand that taste. So that might be, that might be the reason. They did start to apparently put more thought into it going forward. And the other thing that started to happen in 1907 was 1907 was also the first time there was a first foreign pavilion. So Belgium was the first country that built their own building to house their art. So this kind of started the trend of, so first this incorporated architecture into the Venice Biennale, which, you know, later on we'll see a spinoff of. But it also started the trend of foreign countries coming into to build like an entire building, just to display their art. So here is an example of the Belgium Pavilion. It looks a little scary, but again, maybe it's, this is just the taste of the 1907.

Quinn: Yeah. Gotta feel a little bit dramatic walking into that. It's like a very harsh exterior. The colors are nice, you’ve got like a green doorway. You got the little… is that, is it a lion? Is it a Belgian lion?

Betty: I don't know. For a second, I thought you were saying like the squares look like a Belgian waffle.

Quinn: Oh my God. Hey, they do look like a Belgian waffle though. The sides of this building? Maybe that's what they were going for, I don’t know.

Betty: Honestly, that makes more sense. So anyway, so then the following exhibition in 1909, so there was a British Pavilion, a German Pavilion, and apparently a Hungarian Pavilion as well. And then the French and the Swedish Pavilions were built in 1912, but then for some reason, the Swedish Pavilion—I don't, again, this doesn’t explain what happened. It was the, in 1914, the Swedes, I guess, left. And went to the Netherlands and were like, you can have this pavilion, so then the Netherlands took it over. And then the Russian pavilion was built that year as well.

Quinn: Alright, okay. They said nevermind, I guess.

Betty: Yeah. I guess maybe the Swedes were like, okay this was fun, but I don't think we want to do it again. I'm pretty sure they they've since come back, but maybe back in 1914, they were just like, no.

Quinn: Things heating up in Europe at the moment, and we’re out… I guess.

Betty: Yeah, that, that makes sense in a way. So around this time, I guess just shortly before World War I was when it started to become more international, but again, in terms of just international—oh, I guess intercontinental. Cause it's all still European countries at the time. But then later on in the thirties, I didn't know this, apparently the Venice Biennale has started to organize like many international touring shows in other countries, apparently they went to New York in the first year and then they started to go all over the world, which I guess maybe helped to promote themselves around the world to, I guess, convince other countries to bring their artwork to Italy, which it probably did help because that was also around the time when more and more countries started to participate. So they did organize these abroad, many Biennales until the mid 1970s. Apparently they don't do it anymore. Cause I guess now they're famous enough. They don't need to advertise anymore. 

Quinn: No more soliciting.

Betty: Yeah. So they took a break during World War I for obvious reasons. And then came back in 1920 and so—oh, okay. This was, so after the war was when they, they actually kind of really accepted Impressionists. So in 1920 there were works by like Cezanne, Matisse. And they also included other artists like van Gogh. So it was I guess, yeah, starting to be to be, you know, for us now we're just like, oh, okay. These are just normal artists who are in museums, but at the time it was like, whoa, these people are avant-garde.

Quinn: They’re on the cutting edge. And now they're like the most famous artists of all time.

Betty: So in 1922, they included an exhibition where they actually, for the first time incorporated African sculpture, because this was when African art was pretty popular in France and lots of other parts of Europe at the time. And apparently even then, so the curators of the show did use the word primitive to describe the African sculptures, which is not a surprise, but apparently it actually did cause a lot of people to be really angry even at the time. So I'm like, okay, well that makes sense. But I was actually surprised that people were angry.

Quinn: I mean, I guess the bar is in hell, but I'm glad that people at least spoke out about that. Cause that's horrible. 

Betty: Yeah. After this, another war happened, as we know. And so they took another break. But came back again in 1948. 1948, again surprisingly was the first time Picasso’s works were incorporated in the Venice Biennale. And he was already really famous at this point. And he was, he's actually almost 70 years old. But it was the first time Picasso was in the show apparently. And it was also the first time they exhibited the Peggy Guggenheim collection which is, is this really famous collection in the US and continues to be, you know, a pretty big and famous collection. But you know, this was his first time exhibiting in Europe I believe, or at least in Venice. So anyway, so I think again, the show, it continues to incorporate, you know, these avant-garde artists at the time. So it's like reflecting the popular culture, at least at this time, at least in Europe and America is what it was reflecting. So in 1950 they had a Mexican pavilion for the first time. And it included Mexican artists like José Clemente Orozco, Diego Rivera, and Rafino Tomayo. And there were a bunch of other Mexican artists at the time. And these are just some examples. So in the 1960s, this was when pop art was really famous in the US so this also started to incorporate a lot of pop artists. An example was the artist Robert Rauschenberg, and there's also Jasper Johns, Jim Dine, Klaus Oldenburg. And apparently the controversy at this time was the French getting very angry that there was too much too many Americans in the show—

Quinn: Oh my God.

Betty: And they called it cultural colonization. So—

Quinn: Oh my God!

Betty: So like, and they're like, the Americans, there’s too many Americans.

Quinn: I’ve had it up to here with the French. It’s not even their show!

Betty: It’s true. At least I think they were just salty about not being included for a while and the Impressionists not being accepted, I don't know. There's issues. 

Quinn: They’re projecting.

Betty: Yeah. And then in 1966, they included things like optical art and kinetic art. An example is the Argentinian artist Julio Le Parc and they also included the work of a Venezuelan artist, Raphael Soto. And so, you know, now South America is in the picture basically. And another thing that happened in the sixties was in 1966, this was actually the year—this is really relevant to me personally, but I don't know about other people, but I really like the artist Yayoi Kusama, and this was actually the year she quote unquote “presented” at the Venice Biennale for the first time, but she wasn't actually invited. She was, she only was able to—I want to say sneak in, cause she was friends with this Italian artist called Lucho Fontana who was invited officially. He had an exhibition in the show. So apparently he let her in there. She set up on the lawns outside the exhibition and she presented her artwork Narcissist Garden, which is this artwork that has thousands and thousands of silver balls that she put on the ground. She kind of did this, I guess she crashed the show and she did eventually get removed by security. Like they kicked her out and was like, you can't be here.

Quinn: Good for her.

Betty: Yeah. So, but it, again, it's an example of how the Venice Biennale has become the establishment and they're like we get to decide what's art and what's important and what's not. And you know, for them at this time Kusama, they were like, no. And that's significant. And I should mention that's significant, not just because, you know, like she's a woman and they're like, no, you're not important. Like, obviously that is a reason. But the other thing is, like along with Lucho Fontana, and a lot of people who were invited, like she was a part of this Italian art movement among all these people who were invited to this show. So again, even though she's not Italian, she was a pretty significant member of this group. There was just like, no, no you're not.

Quinn: Can't imagine why.

Betty: Exactly. So anyway so yeah. Then what happened two years later was actually the show was, had to be, I think it had to be stopped and parts of the show couldn't open because there was, it was the 1968 protests. And at first I was like, oh, were they protesting because Kusama wasn't in the show? But that was not the reason. But it was a larger like wider student protest movement in Italy at the time. And it just happened to also have affected the event Venice Biennale. So they, but apparently a lot of artists actually did support the protest in solidarity. Some of the artists actually covered up their works or turned them over. And some, I think took their art out of the show and was like, you know, I guess we're not doing it this year.

Quinn: There's a lot going on in the 60s for sure. It was a very popular time to be protesting. And I could definitely see a lot of, even though they are the quote, unquote “establishment,” for sure, definitely like a lot of artists in this kind of thing would still support that kind of a student protest.

Betty: Yeah. And this, the protest actually did have some effects on the show because the following year in 1970, they actually made some changes to the show. So they actually took away what's called the grand prize or grand prizes, which were a bunch of prizes that were given to artists. They got rid of that. It actually ended up coming back later in the 80s, but at least for a while, they were like, I guess we're not giving any awards. And they also eliminated this thing called the sales office. Which is another part of aspect of the show was that they also helped to sell some of the artworks by artists in this show and they charged a commission and that was a part of how they kind of made their revenue. So they got rid of that because they didn't want to be seen as, you know, a part of the commercialization of art, even though they obviously still are, but there were, they were trying to, they were changing up their PR. They were trying to show themselves as, we're, we're not the problem.

Quinn: We’re not a regular art exhibition. We're a cool art exhibition.

Betty: Yeah. And then they also started this sub exhibition or like a part of the show where they call it, they called it the experimental exhibition, which is again their way of saying like, we want to be more, even more avant-garde than we are already, basically.

Quinn: Okay. I guess that's cool.

Betty: Again, they were trying, but yeah, so, but it doesn't mean they all of a sudden just, you know, let in everybody, cause obviously that didn't happen. But so it does show that the Venice Biennale, like it is affected by these social and society kind of like movements and changes. Cause the other, another example of something that dramatically affected the show was in 1974, the entire show was actually dedicated to the nation of Chile. And this was in protest to the Chilean dictator Pinochet at the time. It still featured lots of art from a lot of different countries, but it was like the theme and the movements and there was a lot of like, just solidarity, like for Chile kind of to reflect what was going on at the time.

Quinn: Got it.

Betty: Yeah. I don't know if it's because of Chile being a theme in 1974, but starting in 1980, this was the first time that every exhibition actually had a theme. So before it was just, this is an art show. We have all kinds of art. There wasn't really any like overarching topic. But then in 1980, they started to have themes. The first, or the first time the theme was “art as art." The next time it was “art in the mirror.” And then the following year was "art and science.” So these weren't like, you know, very—well, maybe they were exciting at the time.

Quinn: They’re a little vague.

Betty: Yeah. They're a little vague. So I think a lot of art shows, you know, they have these overarching themes. But I think, I mean the art and science one, I actually, I thought it was pretty interesting because it was one of the first times where they were incorporating things like art in biology and color and how computers and technology was affecting art and the science of art. So it's, I think it's actually kind of cool, like it is an example of they were bridging across disciplines and incorporating like science into, into the show because, you know, there's a lot of overlap between art and science, even though it seems like there isn't, but there is.

Quinn: Yeah, it is definitely a good thing to be, to have as a focus.

Betty: There was an artist called Vichenzo Elesses who did a anti-racist initiative which, and this did also gain a lot of press coverage. It's where he hung up Black figures by butcher blocks. And it was also the first year there was a South African pavilion. So, you know, it's an example of artists who are also activists or who wanted to bring attention to issues like racism into the show. Again, I don't know why—oh, wait, sorry, I do know why it took until 1986, I guess, but for there to be this type of messaging and for it to gain attention. But it is something that was occurring at the time.

Quinn: Yeah, this is definitely, this entire institution seems like the kind of thing that is very slow moving in lots of ways and is only pushed forward by individual actors within the artists and other people involved, like stepping up and being like, let's get things done, guys.

Betty: Yeah. And then in 1988, they actually established this other section in the show called Aperto and it’s an initiative to showcase young artists. So instead of, you know, just showing people who are established in the art world, they did at least try to actively show, you know, someone who is young who's kind of only been in the industry for like, you know, a number of years, but who are showing talent at the time. So they did establish an aspect of the show that was yeah, that was like kind of introducing new artists. But this of course launched into even more controversy, which is, so in a couple of years, in 1990, there was an American group called Gran Fury. And they had an artwork that was focusing on AIDS, which again was obviously a really important topic to bring attention to, but of course people were like, oh my God, this is—I guess, similar to the very first show where they were like, this is scandalous. You know, there were, there was of course people who are in the establishment, who was like, no, we don't want this in the show. But fortunately it did make it into the show.

Quinn: Yeah. How dare people talk about real things? 

Betty: Yeah, of course. At this point, the Venice Biennale has become a thing that, you know, a lot of different nations participate in, it quite often, you know, is reflecting contemporary culture, and artists were not just, you know, not only representing their countries, but they were also bringing attention to important issues around the world at the time. Interestingly it wasn't until 1995 that they actually had a non Italian director. It was a, there was always an Italian director for the show. And in 1995, for the first time, somebody French was the director.

Quinn: Oh no, the French have gotten in!

Betty: Yeah. Like they were like there was too much Americanism, so we're gonna, we're gonna direct the show now, but I don't, it's not like this guy kicked out the Americans or anything.

Quinn: Honestly, that would have been really funny.

Betty: In 1999, they actually did also have a major renovation of the the site that it took place in Italy. And they kind of like doubled their exhibition spaces, cause I think, you know, at this point, they became a lot more popular and they really needed to renovate the space. So after this, the shows from the 2000s on, actually this was around the time when it did start to really grow in terms of like attendance and skyrocket in terms of not only how many people were attending the show, but also the amount of countries around the world who participated in it. It wasn't until 2005 that they actually had women curate the show. So this 2005 was curated by two women, Maria de Corral and Rosa Martinez. So yeah, 2005, ladies have entered the scene.

Quinn: They invented women in 2005, so.

Betty: Oh, oh yeah. I definitely didn't exist until 2005. And then in 2015 which was the 56th international exhibition of the Venice Biennale. This was a, this show was curated by an art critic and writer Okwui Enwezor, and he's from Nigeria and is actually the firstborn African curator of this show. And again, it took until seven years ago for this to happen. 

Quinn: Yeah. 

Betty: But what was great about the show was actually so in 2015, this was the first time that the show attracted over 500,000 visitors. So I, and actually it's 5,000—sorry, 501,000 visitors apparently attended this show. And so there were artists from 53 countries, but then there was actually 89 national pavilions in this year's show. So it definitely, you know, at this point it has grown even even more and since then even more country’s pavilions are being added to it. And what's still happening is for countries that are not represented in the show, around Venice every year when it's happening, there's always just kind of like offshoot events. So there would be like unofficial pavilions presented by various nations who weren't included, but then in subsequent years they would be officially included. So I guess maybe. I don't know, they were just like, oh, I didn't know they were interested. Okay, we’’ll invite them next year.

Quinn: It does seem like this entire thing is being dragged kicking and screaming into the present day and just like acknowledgement that nonwhite men exist, you know, every step counts. We’re getting there.

Betty: Yeah, I guess. But what is interesting is in 2017, there was actually a pavilion called the Diaspora Pavilion, which was just a pavilion, not of like any singular nation or national background. It was a pavilion of artists from various like complex multi-national backgrounds. So I guess they're in diaspora. So it, but it wasn't just one particular one. It was artists from various different diasporas coming together for their own pavilion.

Quinn: That sounds really cool.

Betty: And then something I think you'll like, as we talked quite a lot about cyberart, in 2009 a pavilion called the Internet Pavilion was started. And so it is artworks by people who make art on the internet.

Quinn: Incredible. You love to see it.

Betty: Which brings us to this year. So this year for the second time, ooh, it's a female curator.

Quinn: Another woman? They found another one??

Betty: Oh my God. I can't believe it. So this year it's being curated by Italian curator Cecilia Alemani, and the theme of this year, very interestingly, is called the milk of dreams.

Quinn: The milk?!

Betty: Milk. The thing you drink that's from a cow. Of dreams. 

Quinn: …Okay.

Betty: We'll talk more next time about more what it means or what it's trying to mean. But 2019, this was before they, we knew there was COVID, the theme of 2019’s show was “May You Live in Interesting Times.”

Quinn: I would prefer not to, but I have not been given a choice.

Betty: So anyway, so maybe for the theme this year, they were like, let's just not make it something that is, I don't know, understandable. 

Quinn: Okay. If this triggers some kind of milk related apocalypse, we’ll know. 

Betty: Exactly. It's the French. [Quinn laughs] Next time we'll get into a little bit more of this year’s show, you know what it's about and what are some of the interesting things that are happening in it. But you'll have to, you'll have to come back in a couple of weeks.

Quinn: In the meantime, we also invite you to perhaps listen to some bonus episodes of Pictorial. It is the membership drive time at Relay FM, which is the one time a year when we're like, hey, we have a membership program. If you maybe you didn't know that. You can join whenever you want, but we just decided to remind you about it today. So there's all sorts of bonus content all year round. There is a discord that is exclusive to members. It's really fun in there. There's all sorts of tons of channels. There is also a general stuff about the Relay FM network that's really cool, including a behind the scenes newsletter, you can get wallpaper packs to these gorgeous wallpapers for your computer or phone that are made out of all of the show arts. You can get Pictorial, our gorgeous artwork, you can get Pictorial background wallpaper for stuff, which is so fun. And then this is the real juicy part. You get the crossover podcast feed. This is a members only feed. And this includes special members only shows that happen all year round like Backstage, which is where the founders of Relay FM, Myke Hurley and Stephen Hackett, talk about podcasting and behind the scenes at Relay. And also Fusion, which is every month there's a special bonus episode with a couple of hosts of the network talking about a topic. I believe we've both been on Fusion, right? Have you been on it?

Betty: Honestly, I don't even remember. I think it's possible.

Quinn: Well, that’s exciting. Go subscribe to the members' feed and then go look if Betty's been on because she doesn't remember. I've definitely been on it. But it also has all of the annual specials and we, if you're listening to this episode when it comes out, our annual special is dropping tomorrow.

Betty: As some previous listeners or those who may have heard us talk about previous membership specials may know, our theme of the membership specials happens to be kind of fictionalized versions of the art world. We watch a movie or a show that is about art or about an artist, but it's fictionalized in a way.

Quinn: Usually not very accurate. It's very fun. 

Betty: Yeah. So you know, the first time we talk about, we talked about the movie the DaVinci Code. That was great. You should definitely check that one out. But and last year we talked about the movie The Grand Budapest Hotel, significantly better movie than the DaVinci Code, not even close. And this year we are actually going to be watching a TV episode and is an episode of the show Doctor Who. And it's an episode where van Gogh shows up. 

Quinn: Yeah, this came up briefly on another episode, I think maybe we were talking about musicals because there's so many musicals that people have written about van Gogh. I think this is when this got mentioned. But yeah, there's an episode of Doctor Who that's all about van Gogh and it's actually very sweet and it's one of my favorite episodes. I've seen it before, Betty hasn't seen it. And so we are both going to watch it and come here and talk about it and it should be a lot of fun. So if you want access to that and the previous specials and the previous specials of every single person on the network, going back the last seven years this network has existed, you can do that now by just subscribing at relay.fm/membership. It's $5 a month and you get all of that and we’ll love you. And that's a nice perk too.

Betty: It's the best perk. Our love.

Quinn: All right, regardless of anything, thanks everybody so much for listening to this episode today. So excited to hear more in part two in two weeks. Now if you want to see our show notes, you can find them at relay.fm/pictorial. You could also find us on Twitter or Instagram @PictorialPod, and you can find me on Instagram @aspiringrobotfm.

Betty: And you can find me on Twitter or Instagram @articulationsv. I'm also on YouTube as ARTiculations and speaking of YouTube, we also have a YouTube channel for Pictorial Podcast where we upload video versions of our audio episodes. It generally happens a little while after the audio versions. But for this one, when it comes out, you can look at some historic views of really poorly designed places where they held art exhibitions.

Quinn: Thanks for listening, art enthusiasts!