You Are An Artist (with Sarah Urist Green)

Quinn: Hello, welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. I’m Quinn Rose, I'm someone who did not go to art school, but I love art and I especially love projects that make art more accessible to all people. 

Betty: And I'm Betty. I'm also someone who did not go to art school, but I am someone who has been working as a gallery guide at an art gallery for the past eight years. And I also like the idea of being able to make art, even if you are technically not a professional person. And that may relate to what we talk about today. 

Quinn: So today we are talking about the fabulous new book “You Are An Artist,” which is full of art assignments for all people. And we are joined by a very special guest, the author of this book, Sarah Urist Green.

Sarah: Hello, thank you so much for having me.

Betty: This is the first time that we have a guest on our podcast. So it's quite exciting. 

Sarah: Wow. What an honor. Thanks. Thanks for bringing me in guys.

Betty: Thank you. So yeah, just kind of a quick introduction on Sarah for any of you who do not know who she is. So Sarah, she's a curator. She's an art educator and she is probably most well known for being the creator of the Art Assignment YouTube channel. That's a PBS Digital Studio series that explores art history, as well as formerly a channel that gave art assignments to its viewers to complete. So Sarah she's, she's also a former curator of Contemporary Art at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. And we are very excited for her to join us and to talk about her book.

Quinn: Yeah, well, we wanted to start like way back at the beginning. For anyone who maybe hasn't seen the Art Assignment YouTube channel before, how did this project first start? 

Sarah: So the project first started when I was still working as a curator at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. And I just kept having this nagging feeling that I wasn't doing enough to reach the people I wanted to reach. That by the time people got to the actual art museum, you know, a lot of times they, they just weren't in the right mindset to have a positive experience there. Or I felt like they were the people who were already converted. They were already, they already sort of, they bought it before they got in there. And so I started to think about ways that I might talk to people about art outside of the gallery more and more. And so I, I heard that PBS was starting this new digital network and was open to proposals for new web series, educational web series. So I kind of cooked up this idea for the channel The Art Assignment, which would be me traveling around and asking artists to come up with an assignment that relates to their way of working that would be presented in the form of a video. And then each video would be an open call for other people to respond. So we started the series in 2014. And so over the next three years, we released 60 assignments, and we're overjoyed to see that people did respond. And there were thousands of artworks made in response to those original assignments. But the, but the goal of this series is many fold. The goal is to show people the, the wide range of ways that art is being made today, number one. Another goal was to relate back to art history, to show the things that people had done in the past that relate to the things that are happening now. And like primarily to allow people to try on different ways of working for a while. You know, it's not my thought or the thought of any of the artists who came up with the assignments that you would then, you know, do exactly what this assignment is as your art work for the rest of time. It’s a way to sort of experiment and learn about a new technique or approach or, conceptual framework, and then to, to go about your life and to have understood the way that this artist makes work and to hopefully figure out a way that you want to continue making work.

Betty: So that's actually a pretty good segue into our next question. Cause, yeah, you had mentioned talking about what people did in history and how it relates to the present and, of course, in the book as well as in your assignments, you often reference precedence. And even, actually, even for the book in your introduction, you had referenced Yoko Ono's 1964 book grapefruit, which is precedent for giving art assignments itself. So I think our question in general is, like why do you think it's important to study these artistic precedents? 

Sarah: Well, I mean, I find history and of course in particular art history to be an extremely rewarding way to learn about the past and the world and in a basic way, you get to enter the mindset of somebody who lived before you, who's sort of encapsulated the way that they approach life through their art. So in a very basic way, like I think it's, I think it's an incredibly rewarding activity to look at history through the objects that artists made and to see, see history that way, as opposed to just sort of written accounts and books. But in a, in like a specific sense, like in the context of the social internet and seeing like this explosion of images everywhere. And, you know, most of the time they're not credited, nobody's saying like, oh, this image originally came from that. And then I digitally collaged it into this. And then I joined it with this meme and I, you know, like all of that history was invisible to a large extent. So I wanted to sort of look at these things that were happening and say, hey, this artist in the 1960s did something similar or this Renaissance manuscript maker did something analogous at this time. So as a way to kind of like contextualize our output today, you know, we tend, I think, often to think about art history as something cold and dead. But for me, it's alive and you can see its traces everywhere.

Quinn: I was just going to say that as people currently running an art history podcast, that definitely speaks to us.

Sarah: Oh, of course.

Quinn: I especially like that point of like, in this age of the social internet and how we often lose the context for these kinds of things, providing that context. And I was also wondering like, how did you decide what examples will be paired with which assignments? It feels like there's such a rich variety of these different things. And sometimes they are like very straightforward relations to the assignments. Sometimes there are things that I wouldn't have thought of, but they still, but they still like very naturally connect to the idea that's expressed in that assignment. So how did you find those and pick them?

Sarah: It was a bit, sometimes they were just things that happened to float into my mind. And other times it was harder, harder to land on something. I mean, I would often sort of flip through my art history books. And I also had, sort of—what did I call it? I called it like the Art Assignment Brain Trust. And it was basically a list of old friends from graduate school teachers I knew, art historians I knew, artists who I was, every once in a while, send out an email and say like, here are three upcoming assignments, help. I can't think of an art historical precedent. And so every once in a while I do that, when I get stuck. But it's amazing, you know, I think in a lot of ways, like once the assignment was devised, I could then think about it for a while and consider different, different ways to relate it back to art history. And with the input of others, I would sort of dig up different ways to contextualize it. 

Quinn: Well I was also wondering, kind of in the same vein, is how was the order of assignments in the book decided, and does the order have any significance?

Sarah: Yeah, I experimented with a few ways of organizing the book. In the very back of the book, there are these lists of different categories, and a way to sort of sort the assignments into categories that say like, photography-based assignments or out in the world or inside your studio or with kids, or could be done with painting or could be a writing exercise.  And I thought about ways to structure it that way, because in many senses, that's a little more intuitive. But a lot of the assignments overlap. Like something is both—can be both a writing exercise and a photography exercise, depending on how you execute it. So I just, I base—I actually, you know, printed out the title of each chapter and cut it out into a little card and sort of arranged them all and sort of created what made sense in my head is a kind of progression. I wanted to make sure that we started with a grounding exercise, and what could be more grounding than making a rubbing? So that's why it starts with surface test. I knew I wanted to end with Lonnie Holley’s shadow portrait, because it was an artist that I had referenced in the introduction. And then it's one, it was one of the newly commissioned assignments. And for me it made sense to bookend that with the introduction to the book. I knew I wanted to have the meet in the middle exercise in the middle, which is kind of silly, but I kind of liked that as this as a signpost in the middle. And then I just sort of moved them around and put them in an order that I liked. But, but I'm curious how that, how that structure either makes sense or doesn't for the reader. 

Betty: Yeah, I actually, I was going to say, I really liked how you have at the end of the book, like the categories of each assignments, you know, like out in the world or with a friend. And I think it's especially relevant to right now in the quarantine time. Cause there's certain categories that you cannot do and certain categories that are more easily achievable. So that's actually a, you know, brilliant move on your part. And, yeah. And then I guess in terms of the sequence, you know what, like, I kind of, the way I read this book, cause you know, some of the assignments I'm super familiar with and some of them are obviously new. I actually jumped back and forth. Like I read your introduction, but then I kind of went to some assignments and read about them first and then jumped to others. So I feel like it's one of these books where you just, you can just like pick up and open to a random page. Like I actually, I think it would be great if you're like today, I want to do an assignment. I'm just going to pick a random one by opening to page 58 and then I'll do whatever it says on there. So, yeah, like I see it as not really a cover to cover type of book.

Sarah: And that's exactly how I intended it to be like. I would be surprised if anybody like sat down and read it, you know, from, from beginning to end. If they did that's great. But like, I see it as a book you kind of dip in and out of. You scan, you look at images, you read one assignment, you sort of flip through and choose another. And so I'm, I'm glad that it came across that way too.

Betty: Well, we were wondering like how much work did you do to like kind of deconstruct the assignments down to something that basically anyone can do, which like, we feel like essentially all the assignments are that way. So yeah, what does the process of that look like for you to distill these assignments? You know, if any.

Sarah: You know when they are devised by the artists, like I approach artists and ask them if they would be up for coming up with an assignment that relates to their practice. And sometimes they say yes, great. And then they come back to me with a fully formed assignment. And other times that, you know, it's more of a collaboration where we talk through different ideas and work it through gather. But I say from the start that it's my hope that this, this, the assignment could be accomplished by anyone who need not have particular skills and who need not have expensive or highly specific materials. Like it could be something that could be done by someone at home. So from the start of each assignment, that it is designed with those ideas in mind and then, you know, thinking through the way that they're presented in the book, you know, the videos—so 40 of the assignments in the book, are also are started out their lives as Art Assignment videos. And then there are 13 new ones. And it was an interesting process to write the book because I had sort of had it in the back of my mind that the art, the art assignments that already existed as videos were sort of done. You know, like there it is. I'll kind of rework the scripts a little bit and reorganize it, but, but it shouldn't be that hard. But it was actually like, it was, it was just as hard, in many ways as writing the brand new chapters, because it's a completely different thing to write a, to write a book to be read than it is to write a script to be a YouTube video accompanied by visuals. You know, the videos were sort of the launching point for these assignments in many ways. And I learned so much from other people doing the assignments, and for me doing the assignments, that was really rewarding to be able to come back to revisit these assignments in the context of this book. And, you know, there's a tips, cheats and variation section for each assignment chapter. And that was really, really fun to make, because I could draw on all of the things that people had done in response to the assignments. So, you know, I also just tried to think very practically when presenting each of these assignments, like, what if, I don't have A, B or C, how could you work around it? I think we all tend to make, including myself, excuses for why they can't do something. You know it's like, I can't make a recipe because I don't have cilantro or whatever, you know? Like what, what can you do? There's clearly a workaround, you know, you can always do that. So I try to help people by saying like, okay, you know maybe you can't do this because of A, why don't you try it this other way?

Quinn: I liked, especially I could tell reading through the book, even though there was a section that you specifically put that's more kid friendly projects, I felt like almost every project in this book could be very easily done with kids if they had a parent or like older sibling guiding them through it. And I really liked noticing that aspect of it as well. 

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, people, people ask me like, oh, is this, who is this book for? Like what age group? And I’m like, everybody? I mean, it's definitely designed for sort of teen and up in terms of like the way that it's written and the amount of text. But, but it’s definitely, I hope that people do it, you know, not just with their kids, but with their, maybe with their older family members, that this is something that you can talk about together and do as, as a group activity, or a community exercise, whether or not you've been to art school or have experience making things.

Quinn: Yeah. And also speaking of the sort of examples of responses that people have had to art assignments over the years, some of which are included in the book, are there any particularly memorable responses that jump out to you or that you know that you'll always remember?

Sarah: Yeah. The response, it's actually a very small picture that’s in the book, to the assignment by David Brooks “Never Seen, Never Will.” And the assignment is to articulate something that you've never seen in your life and probably never will. And this person made a drawing of their father whom they'd never met or seen a photo of, and just created this, this picture by thinking about what they look like and what their, what their mom looks like, and sort of going from there. And it was something that somebody posted to Tumblr and I tried really hard to contact that person and couldn't ever locate them. Unfortunately a lot of the assignment responses to the early assignments were posted and shared on Tumblr. And since Tumblr is no longer the place where a lot of people will post things, it can be hard to reach people. But yeah, I mean, there are so many wonderful responses. And originally I had pictured having many more assignment responses in the book, but in talking with my editor, we really didn't want it to be overwhelmed with images. Like if you flip through the book, you can see that there's quite a bit of white space, and that's intentional. I really want to just sort of give enough information, but not too much, you know, if I showed you an assignment—and you can still go online and find out that a lot of other responses to some of these assignments. But sometimes you just want a couple reference images instead of being overwhelmed by a whole lot of ways that other people have interpreted it.

Betty: So has doing the Art Assignment channel, and obviously now writing this book, do you think it's changed your personal view of either artists or art history or the art world in general in any way?

Sarah: Oh yeah. When I started the channel, you know, I left my museum post and I would say that, you know, in the early days of the Art Assignment, I didn't want to sort of answer a lot of questions that I think people have about art in the wider community that I sort of in my head I was like, okay, let's get to the more interesting nuanced questions. Like I don't want to answer, I don't want to talk about, you know, “I could do that," that response, like, I don't want to talk about “why is this art?” And then I realized over the course of making these videos, that is, that is an important question. And it's hard to answer, maybe even impossible, but it's worth trying and it's worth having those discussions. And I think by doing these assignments, it's a way of thinking about it. You know, a lot of these assignments you could do without considering them to be art. I mean, the first assignment we put out in the video series, “meet in the middle,” to meet a friend at the exact geographic midpoint between where the two of you live—you can do that and not think of it as art, and that's fine. But if you're open to it, you can think about the ways that it could be art and the ways that other people in the past have done things that relate to it. And I think, I think that can make it be a more meaningful experience. 

Quinn: I will, I have to say I'm definitely doing that someday. Cause I have a lot of friends who live in different cities and I can't wait to figure out what the exact midpoint is between us.

Betty: Quinn let's meet in the middle of, I dunno, probably Lake Huron or something.

Quinn: [laughs] Yeah, middle of the Great Lakes for us.

Sarah: Oh, do it. I want to see it.

Quinn: Well, let's dive into a couple of these assignments themselves. So one that really spoke to me while I was reading was the “drawing what you know rather than what you see.” This was based on the work of Kim Dingle, who had a pretty successful series of artworks of these like little girls. And then one day she said that she could draw them blindfolded. And so she, she did. And she was like, that seems like a source of inspiration actually. So she drew them, she painted them blindfolded and ended up with these series of these kind of, sometimes they were somewhat grotesque, sometimes they were really beautiful, like interesting blindfolded drawings of these artworks that she knew really well. And so the assignment here was to blindfold yourself and to draw your home, is what is in the book. And then trying to—and then taking the blindfold off and drawing it again. I did this assignment with, I chose to draw my tattoo that I have on my leg. And it was a lot of fun because I look at, I see this tattoo every single day since I got it about a year ago, it's one of the things I see the most, since it's on my body and I still ended up with just like these wildly abstract interpretations of what a flower could be.

Sarah: I love it. 

Quinn: It was, it was a lot of fun. What did you choose to draw when you did this assignment?

Sarah: Well, when we were talking about this assignment, I mean, I've only done this assignment with my home, because it was sort of like we were testing it and seeing what would work because, you know, she draws—it was inspired, as you said, by this series of paintings she makes little girls. And the goal was to, to have people pick something that was very close to them or that they see every day or pass every day, but might not pay attention to the details of. So I did, I did try my house. We liked choosing the word “home,” because it could be interpreted so widely. And I love that you did your tattoo cause like that's, that's such a part of you. But that you, but that you may not like sort of observe on a close basis every day. I, you know, I loved this one, and there's a reason why it's near the beginning of the book, because again, like, I think that there are certain exercises that are helpful to do to kind of get over any self-consciousness you might have about making art. I mean, I—even from a young age, people start to be like so self-conscious about whether or not they can draw well or, you know, or like have a fixed idea about like “I’m person who can draw well, I'm not, I am an artist, I am not.” And this is something where you have to be totally freed from that and you can really just think about like what your mental picture is of a, of a place or a thing or a, you know, a tattoo on your own body, and sort of think about what it is that you're actually trying to represent. Instead of like, when I think about drawing house, like maybe I think about it in terms of volumes, like there is a, you know, a rectangular shape here and this jets out here. But when you're thinking about it in your head and trying to put it to paper, it’s more dimensional. It's more about space and it might be more about feeling, or it might be more about perspective. Like how are you looking at it? From what angle are you looking at it? So it seems like a very sort of simple, straightforward exercise, but for me, it really opens people up. And I love the last, the last part of it, which is after. So you make the blindfolded version, and then you make the un-blindfolded version and then you compare the two and absolutely every time I've done this or seen somebody else do it, the blind folded drawing is better. Quinn, how was it for you? 

Quinn: I… So like the non blindfolded version was more accurate. Like, it was closer to what my tattoo actually looks like, but I liked the blindfolded version better because I did feel like it was more expressive, which is a word that it's used in the assignment. I just, I just feel like the stylization that I created. So then really, by not being able to see what I was doing, actually, I created just a prettier version of what I look at.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Quinn: I also find this exercise fascinating, because I feel like it's an inversion of what most of the assignments in the book are, which is a lot of the assignments are about observing the world and thinking very deeply about how you're interacting with the world and interpreting the world around you. Whereas this one is like, literally like, keep your eyes shut and try to do something completely from your own brain, which is not very many things in this book. And I was wondering if you could speak more about that idea and why this one is a little different than the rest.

Sarah: Yeah, I think this one really represents the personality of the artist, Kim Dingle. And, and I, when I was thinking about artists to commission to create the new assignments for the book, she's really someone who I was excited to contact and, you know, we, I had set up a time to interview her. And we had agreed on, you know, when exactly would be. And I had confirmed the time with her. And then I called and she was, she was in the middle of a Trader Joe's. [laughs] And I was like, is now still a good time? And she's like, oh yeah, yeah, let's do it. But I like that attitude. And you know, I think, personally I tend to be attracted to cerebral art sometimes, or, you know, like carefully made art or carefully considered art. And with—in many cases, like, especially in this case, I really wanted to bring it in the voice of an artist who was more experimental and a little bit more playful and freer. And I think, you know, I think we, we underrate the importance of play and experimentation in art, on this kind of a level. And I loved, I loved including her voice here, to fulfill a gap that I sensed was missing.

Quinn: I also really like how you've included these direct quotes from her with this brief interview with Kim Dingle. One of my favorite things of the whole book is just “why should someone do this, what’s the point?” She says, “what's the point of having a new awareness you did not have before?”

Sarah: Well, I wanted to include this because every time she answered an email of mine, it was always in all caps. [laughs] So I, you know, it, I don't think it in the way that it's designed in the book, it doesn't necessarily translate, but like in my head I'm reading it like all caps. 

Quinn: Oh, I love that. Cause I, I did not realize that because of the formatting, but the idea of her responding all caps, question to a question, really completes a picture of this artist who's created this assignment.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Betty: The Art Assignment topic that I wanted to talk about is, you had mentioned it previously, so it's the last art assignment in the book. It is a shadow portrait that was given by Lonnie Holley. And so you had mentioned him in your introduction, your art teacher from when you were in school. And I really liked the quote that, or I really liked the passage that you had written about, just Lonnie giving assignments in general, where you had written, “so the idea was not for all of us to become artists like Holley, or to make sculptures that look just like his, it was to try on a way of working for a while to gain a momentary glimpse into the material and ideas that inspired him to make art.” And, yeah, I really think that, you know, it speaks to what a lot of the assignments are like in the book and what we've spoken about, which is, you know, it's not about like learning how to draw properly. It's not about becoming like a super skilled artist and like technical quality. It really is about just, yeah, like understanding a new way of working and maybe understanding someone else and exploring materials and ideas. So the other thing that this assignment reminded me of, like when I was reading through it, I quickly, I thought about a couple of things. So, Quinn and I, on a previous podcast, we were talking about museums we like, and I talked about, I went to the National Portrait Gallery one year in London, England. And there was actually a portrait in there, so it’s by the artist Tim Noble, it's called Isabella Blow. And it actually is like, it's like a mess of feathers on a stick. And when I first looked at it, I was like, what is that? And then I saw to the side, there was a light shining on it and it actually cast the profile of someone's face on a wall. And I was like, whoa, that's cool. And then, so the assignment itself, so this is where you take a hanger and you make a self portrait or a profile of your own face. And again, like when I read that, it reminded me of another thing we talked about on a previous podcast, which is Ai Weiwei’s profile of Marcel Duchamp, which is one of like, I think one of his first works that he did in the eighties where he took a hanger and formed Marcel Duchamp's profile, his face, in the hangar. So, you know—anyway, I just came up with precedents for you.

Sarah: Thank you. [laughs]

Betty: Oh, no problem. Anyway, so yeah, it just, there's just so many connections that you can draw from this. And also it's just like such an interesting assignment to do. So like one thing I was wondering was, like, was there any significance in doing a self portrait, a self profile—so like was there a reason that we're asked to sculpt our own face instead of like someone else’s face?

Sarah: Well, I think, you know, when I’ve—when I was talking to Lonnie about this exercise, you know, he proposed this as a self portrait exercise, but you know, I also think that it's completely open to be interpreted anyway you like. Because I know when I did this, I was like, okay, I'm going to try to make a self portrait. And I kind of looked at myself, my profile in the mirror, and I had this wire and I started bending. And, you know, because I'm not, I’m not a masterful wire bender it was very—it’s not easy to control and to a certain extent, you kind of have to like see where it goes. But I, but I liked that about it, and I liked that, you know, your work in my, in my perspective is a kind of self portrait, regardless of what the subject matter is, you know, it's a self portrait in that you made it and you spent time with this material and it is, it is a part part of you, or it is somehow a reflection of you, regardless of who it depicts or whether it resembles you. So I, and I really—I decided not to hang anything from it or at least I haven't yet. And it's hanging in my office, and I love that it's there. And I also like that, I like that I could add to it. And I like that it's something that I see and I pass and, you know, like not, not to get too, too deep, but… Like our own selves, like we're always changing. We're always evolving. And I like that this is a bit open-ended. And another thing about this assignment in particular that I really appreciate is when you're reading the instructions, like the steps. It like, it kind of keeps surprising. You’re like, okay, you make a self portrait and then if you want, you got to add to it. Okay, but you’re not done. You've got to now hold it a few inches from a wall to take a picture of the shadow. And then you have to hang it on your door and, and he says, every time you leave your house, be the person you envisioned when you made it. You know, and there's so many, like, I love the layers of this. And it's, to me, it opens up different ways of the work existing and it gives it a life beyond being made. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day, like, “oh, what do you do with all the art that you've made? Or the assignments that you've tried?” Like, I don't, you know, it's around—it’s a part of your life. Like sometimes I throw it away, you know, sometimes I hang it on the wall and I see it. And it's a reminder of that artist, of the assignment, of that activity, of whatever the subject is. And for me, I think it's really beautiful that Holley’s assignment acknowledges the life of the work that it's not, it's not just about the process. It's not just about the making, but it's about living with it too. 

Betty: Yeah. And you can also give it as a gift to someone else.

Sarah: That's right.

Betty: In terms of, yeah, in terms of the self portrait aspects, I was wondering if this relates, or if you had any thoughts, about, you know, the history of making self portraits in art history.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I decided, you know, not all of the assignments in the book have the history as your guide section. And there is so much art history that I'm sure you, you all are very much familiar with about self portraiture and how, how it has been interpreted through the years. And I personally enjoy a portrait that's not a photographic likeness, you know, like I like a self portrait that is made from alternative materials or is, might be a little bit unexpected. And I, I didn’t—I purposefully wanted to end the book, like, not by referencing back, just to like really sort of put you in the present moment and, you know, have you have you, relate here, but I'm curious, were there, besides the portrait of Marcel Duchamp, Betty, are there particular self-portraits or sort of alternative self-portraits that this made you think of?

Betty: Yeah, in general, one of those things that I, you know, I did think about a lot was, like the history of self portraits in general. You know, that artists have made, like I thought about like Van Gogh's self portrait, and that's of course, you know, like he’s obviously known to like stylize his work that's, you know, it's not a photographic likeness of himself. And then I actually like, interestingly, like also thought about artists maybe like Rembrandt, or like—or artists has like hidden themselves in a different artworks that have other people in it. And so, and it, and it does make me think about like, for me, like when I see a self portrait of an artist, like it's, it's always, like for me, I think it shows more than just like, if they painted someone else. Cause like inevitably I think you put more of your own, like whether it's emotions or history or, or, or like some something in yourself that's not just like a physical depiction into the self portrait. So like, that's why, like, I'm also personally super fascinated by self portraits in general. Yeah, and then I guess just one last question then, of course, like I'm kind of referring to art history again. Like one thing, you know, in the assignment, one instruction in the assignment is to use objects that's like around you, like, don't go out and buy something, especially, you know, don't go out and spend so much money. And then of course I thought about the Ai WeiWei example. So I was wondering, you know, like, if you can speak about just kind of, how the history of ready-made, and its significance, to this particular assignment.

Sarah: I mean, I think that the way that Holley has always made his work is by being a kind of improviser and scavenger. And I think that we tend to forget that art making has always been a kind of scavenging. You know, the earliest paints were charcoal sticks and pigments found in nature. And I think it’s—like when I think about an art supply store, like I love art supply stores. I could spend all day there. I find them very inspiring. I could sink thousands of dollars into any one visit, but I also think that it's not really where art comes from. Art evolved to be painting on canvas with stretcher bars, and very particular kinds of pigments and application techniques and weird brushes with, you know, made of hair. And, you know, it's really odd when you think about it. And for me, this—Lonnie’s assignment sort of gets back to what art really is, which is using what you have around you and making it interesting, intriguing,  thought-provoking, fulfilling, sometimes beautiful objects from what you have around you. So, that is something that I hoped all of the assignments would be, and they are to a certain extent, even if they involve, or maybe especially if they involve technology, like technology is a part of our lives now. So like working with what's around you doesn't necessarily mean, just mean like, leaves and sticks outside or the wire coat hangers in your closet. It's also your phone. It's also the way, you know, the ways that you make things throughout, throughout your day, it's using kitchen implements, which you might make into a musical instrument if you were doing Find Your Band. So there is, there is that art history of, you know, the readymade and Duchamp in the early 20th century, bringing non-art objects into the gallery. But I would say that the real history is reaching back much, much farther from before art was made into this highly codified phenomenon where you went to school and studied very particular ways of making. To me, this assignment is about the real art history, which is humans finding ways to manipulate the materials and tools around them to make, to make interesting objects.

Quinn: I think that is a perfect place to end for the day. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on and sharing some behind the scenes about this book and your thoughts on art, and also thank you for all of your work and helping to make art more accessible to all people. 

Sarah: Well, thank you guys. This was really a wonderful, wonderful way to, to start my day and I really enjoyed talking with you.

Betty: Thank you so much.

Quinn: Hope everybody out there has the chance to check out You Are An Artist, a wonderful book. We barely scratched the surface on all of the assignments that are in here. And it's great all the time, I think it's especially great if you're looking for more activities right now, or if you want more activities to share as you're homeschooling your kids and stuff like that. As well as the accompanying YouTube channel The Art Assignment. If you want to see more from us, you can read our show notes at relay.fm/pictorial or follow us on Twitter or Instagram @PictorialPod, where there'll be images of some of the stuff we talked about today. And if you want to follow me on Twitter or Instagram, I'm @aspiringrobotfm. 

Betty: And if you want to follow me on Twitter or Instagram @articulationsv. And I also have a YouTube channel, ARTiculations. Sarah, where can we find you on the Twitter, social media-verse? 

Sarah: You can find me by searching The Art Assignment, or you can go to theartassignment.com. And of course our channel, the Art Assignment on YouTube. 

Quinn: Great. Thank you so much. And thanks for listening, art enthusiasts!