Video Games as an Art Form

Quinn: Hello, and welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. My name is Quinn Rose. I'm someone who didn't go to art school, but I love art and finding art in places that maybe you don't necessarily think they are all the time. 

Betty: Hi, and I'm Betty. I'm also someone who did not go to art school. But I also love art and finding art in peculiar and unexpected places. I've also been working at an art gallery for the last actually almost eight years. So I know a little bit about art, but I, you know, I'm excited to talk about things outside of the gallery as well.

Quinn: So today our topic was recommended by Bastian Inok and they asked us to talk about the question of are video game art? This has been an ongoing debate for some people who are artists and critics in this whole space. I think that, uh, based on conversations that we've had in the past, that both of us would say that yes, video games are art. Is that a fair assumption?

Betty: I would definitely agree with that video. Video games are art, but I definitely have met people who disagree with that statement.

Quinn: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about why someone might think that video games are, or are not, art. This debate has been going on for a long time. I think it was kind of all the rage in like the mid 2000s. There was a film critic named Roger Ebert who was really on a tear about this, about how video games are not art. And he like very strongly argued for this. So that kind of propelled a lot of the debate this topic. Basically, one quote that he gives about it was “to my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists poets, filmmakers, and novelists and composers. That a game can aspire to artistic importance as a visual experience I accept. But for most gamers video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic.” Ouch.

Betty: Whoa, okay. Well, I have a lot to say, say about that.

Quinn: Go for it. 

Betty: Well, I mean, that actually reminds me of something else that happened recently, which is I think earlier this year, Martin Scorsese said the Marvel movies are not cinema. Which, you know, probably also triggered a lot of people. Um, and I, you know, I don't have his exact quote on why he doesn't think Marvel movies are cinema, but I think it, it’s a similar critique critique, I think. You know, both Marvel movies and video games are things that are quite popular in like, popular culture. They're very like visually dense and, or, you know, most video games are, can be visually dense and maybe full of action and things like that. And so I feel like there is a tendency in general for critics, and like people of quote unquote like “high culture” in general to be very dismissive of things that are a part of popular culture. I've talked before about like high art versus low art. And there's some, some artists and some people obviously believe there is a, or there shouldn't really be a division between them, but obviously other people think there is. And so I think, yeah, like on one level is that there's just is a tendency to just be dismissive of things that are popular. Um, so like maybe Roger Ebert is, I dunno, a hipster or something.

Quinn: I think that’s part of it. And there's also this distinction of like entertainment versus art. And it's, I think that some people get to this point where they're like, well, if it's too… like games or something that it's entertaining, but it's mindless, like it’s… and it's no more artful than playing a game of checkers. Like you don't have that, you don't have the same kind of emotional depth that you get with things like literature and film and stuff like that. Just like you were saying, I mean, there is, I think a certain amount of just plain pretentiousness to it where it's like, oh, well that can't possibly be good because it's popular. So that's just pop art or pop culture. It's not real culture, high culture.

Betty: Yeah, for sure. And like you said, a lot of them have a position that there's not a level of like emotional and cultural depths to video games, which I absolutely do not agree with. I definitely think some games don't have a lot of emotional depth. Like I don't really think, well, I mean, I could be wrong, someone might disagree with me, but I don't think Tetris is particularly emotionally deep, although maybe when you get to the higher levels, you know, it can be quite intense. But you know, a game, like for example, like Last of Us is so emotionally rich and deep. And, again I don't know, I can't say much about its like cultural significance, but there are so many games that can just suck you in, in terms of like emotional significance, and just suck you into their world. So, you know, I definitely disagree with them on that, uh, on that note. And then the other thing you mentioned was he was saying that, you know, it's kind of just a waste of time. You know, you could be spending this valuable time getting cultured by reading literature or going to a museum or whatever. And as somebody who does read books and does go to museums and does, um, I don't know, like go to a symphony once in a while, but also plays video games sometimes for like 20 hours in a row. That might be a bit excessive, but I was always of the position that like playing video games is very beneficial from a variety of perspectives. And I even think in many cases it's really educational. Growing up my, you know, parents and teachers also held to view that, you know, video games are horrible and a waste of time, like, you know, you should be studying, but I think I, and you know, my peers, like we learned a lot from video games. Like for one, a lot of games, literally teaches you like fine motor skills. It teaches you how to, you know, be problem solvers. You know, you navigate through these worlds and you have to find things. You have to fight people. You have to solve puzzles. It teaches analytical skills and thinking, uh, just like, you know, ways of different ways of thinking. Yeah depending on the game, it like, video games are very educational and in some cases, I think, much more educational than just like sitting in a classroom and reading a textbook because it's actually experiential to do something that's like an applied skill, or you get to pick up an applied skill. Um, yeah. And like later on, actually, I'm going to talk about that game. It’s called, uh, City Skylines. It's based on Sim city. And you know, that's a game that teaches you about like urban planning and architectural planning and like road, uh, traffic density and politics and budgeting. I think, you know, when people think video games are a waste of time, I'm just like, well, you clearly just haven't played video games. Like Candy Crush might be a waste of time, but like–apologies for anyone who plays Candy Crush. 

Quinn: There was a quote from a Forbes article I read about this that said “not all games deserve the title of art or high art, but to be fair, we also sell terrible paintings and trashy books.” And I think that's what it comes down to, right? I mean, like, anything can have value if you take value from it. Like, even if it's Candy Crush, like if that's something you enjoy doing and it's relaxing to you or whatever, that's fine. Um, it's not necessarily artful, but it doesn't mean it doesn't have value. But at the same time, like, there are in all, any kind of field of creation, there are things that are kind of, you know, just for fun or just basic entertainment, not really done with an artful eye. And there are some things that aren't, and I don't think video games are any kind of exception to that. It has the same spectrum of all these different things. People have dismissed it over the years, uh, because it did start out very simplistic. I mean, you start out with like Pong or whatever, and people are like, well, that's not anything. There is a little bit of willful ignorance in the growth of what video games are and what that phrase even means as the years have gone on. Because I mean, now video games mean anything from Candy Crush on your phone to a narrative game that you can pour hundreds of hours in to, um, a Nintendo game platform built like, oh, there's a, it's just hard to even define what it is now. And now you have a virtual reality games where you literally are playing in a full three dimensions now, and you're immersed into an experience to a degree that you never have been before. And I mean, you can't call a VR game art or at least designed to be artful, then what can you call art?

Betty: Yeah. And, and yeah, again, like speaking of just benefits that I was talking about before, like with VR and with like, um, controllers that can simulate motion or can capture your motion. Like yeah, you can play like tennis or ping pong. Um, and it can just be a good workout. So there's just, there's just like so many, um, obviously, yeah, like playing ping pong again might not be high art, but I think again, like the newness, the nature of the fact that, you know, when video games were first out in the eighties, and yeah the simplistic nature of it might make people think, yeah, there's not much to this. And maybe in the beginning, you couldn't do very much, but yeah, like all art, like as it progresses—or sorry as technology as it progresses, you can, there's just much more capabilities.

Quinn: And for the record, um, a lot of governments agree with us here. For example, the United States government ruled that video games were legally art in June of 2011 in a decision in the Supreme Court, Brown vs Entertainment Merchants Association. Basically, uh, the case was about like our video games protected speech like other forms of art? And they wrote that yes they are. And in March of 2006, the French minister of culture categorized video games as cultural goods, um, and granted the industry a tax subsidy, like the other forms of art in France. And even as far back as the 1980s, art museums began to display sort of, uh, retrospects of different games, something that has continued up to this point and kind of like peaking, for now, obviously there will be many more in the future, but in 2012, the Smithsonian American Art Museum did a huge video game exhibit that did eventually leave the Smithsonian and tour a few different art museums as a traveling exhibit as well. And so obviously, I mean, that sort of a placement of video games into the Smithsonian is a pretty comprehensive endorsement as them as a form of art.

Betty: Yeah. And in the Museum of Modern Art, they also have a permanent collection that includes at least 14 video games. So there's like Pac-Man, Tetris, Sim City, Sims, Portal, and just yeah like, games dating from the 1980s till I think like the 2000s. But, um, so I guess, yeah, I'm not sure when this collection was updated, but I think it was probably done in like 2012 or something, or maybe last updated in 2012. So it doesn't include some more recent titles. Um, so yeah, it has a place in at least the Museum of Modern Art as well.

Quinn: Going back to what we were talking a little bit before, about how there are so many different kinds of video games now that it's, it's basically impossible to make sweeping generalizations about the entire field at this point. Um, and I just wanted to point out a couple specific things, like definitely I think that there's a lot more artistic notions going on in the indie gaming community. A lot of—especially on the non-visual level, like in terms of the emotional depth and sort of, uh, cultured experience that Roger Ebert thinks is very important. Not that those never exist in popular games, but there, I think that there exists at a higher proportion in indie games, because that tends to be what people are more focused on is creating an emotional journey. And there's even a specific class of games that are called empathy games now, which is—the whole point of them is to put the person playing into like a stressful situation in order to better understand someone else's life, like poverty, a different sexuality, physical or mental illness. Um, these kinds of things have become more and more common now and are very different from something like maybe a shooting game, where they—of course like games that are primarily focused on like shooting and beating levels and stuff can still have emotional arcs, but it's very interesting to see this emergence of something where like, that is the whole point of the game. It’s not not—some of them are barely even about gameplay, it’s more of an immersive movie or book than anything else. 

Betty: Yeah, actually what you just spoke about does remind me of this article I found on Time Magazine. So the author, um, Chris Melissinos is arguing that video games are actually so, quote, he says “video games are also the only form of media that allows for personalizing the artistic experience while still retaining the authority of the artist. In video games, we find three distinct voices: the creator, the game, and the player. Those who play a game are following the stories of the author and are bound by the constructs of the rules. But based on choices, the experience can be completely personal.” So unlike art, uh, unlike other forms of art, like you know, paintings or a movie or music, video games, it's still something that's created by another person. You can't have like full control of it, but you get to dictate your own experience and you get to like, it's like almost every person who plays the video game is like partially a creator.

Quinn: Yeah. That's a really important part of this too, that there are some things that video games can't do the way that other mediums can. And there's some things that other mediums can't do as well as video games. They do create, um, just like with anything else, they have their own set of advantages and disadvantages. And the person who wrote that Times article was actually the same person who curated that exhibit at the Smithsonian.

Betty: Oh, interesting.

Quinn: So, full circle moment.

Betty: Nice!

Quinn: So I think we want to talk a little bit about the particular games that we really appreciate their art for either visual or emotional reasons. And so do you want to start out by talking about a couple of games that you love?

Betty: Oh yeah, I have a list of a whole bunch, but I mean, maybe I won’t—maybe I won't go through all of them, but I actually, so one thing that kind of immediately came to mind, I don't even know why, um, kind of a weird choice for a game, but a game that I've really enjoyed. Uh, I got, I started playing this a few years ago, but I really enjoyed it, is a game called Papers Please.

Quinn: Oh yeah.

Betty: Yeah. So it's really funny. It's kind of a weird choice, but yeah, it's developed by indie game developer, Lucas Pope. And you play as this border crossing immigration officer in this dystopian Eastern Block country called Arstotzka. It's a fictional, like, Eastern European country and yeah, basically like, it came out in like 2014, but… the graphics are like, almost look like it's like 8-bit, it's like low pixelated game. But yeah, so it's a, it's a simulation game where you play an immigration officer and you basically decide—you check people’s immigration documents, like their passports, their visas or work permits. And you decide if they're acceptable to be let into your country or not. And if you let the wrong person in, they might be a terrorist and blow up, like, you know, something in your country. But if you don't let someone in, who's supposed to, you get like, penalized. And then, um, I actually haven't finished the game, but like, there's like actually a storyline and throughout the game, you have people trying to like bribe you. You’ll have women who are like, oh, if you let me in, you can come visit me at the strip club and I'll give you a lap dance for free.

Quinn: Oh boy.

Betty: It's quite interesting. Anyway, it's I just, I thought of this just because like, this game is so like visually… it’s visually—I don't want to use the word beautiful because it's like, you know, it's supposed to be depicting like a dystopic Eastern European country, but it is like visually quite stunning, even though it's, you know, it's just got like very like low resolution graphics and just—but it's not just the visual aspect. It's kind of like the whole way that it's laid out. The way that, you know, it really makes you feel like you're working as a, you know, bureaucrat and you have like this desktop in front of you on people and papers that you come across and you have a stamp. And just also like the sound design, the audio of like just a clicking of the stamp. And then just also like the storyline and how it progresses. Just kind of like everything in this game is so, um, just like so well done and like it, and it also demonstrates that like, you don't need like fancy graphics  to have a really amazing looking and well designed game. Cause you know today I had to buy a new computer just to support, just to be able to graphically and have my CPU be able to support most modern games. Whereas this game, if you don't, you don't need that. But it's amazing. So I recommend everyone play this game.

Quinn: Is this one of those games that like, it's all on one screen as well? Like you're just kind of dealing with one screen and not moving around as a character?

Betty: Yeah, pretty much. You essentially have like two screens. You have one screen where it's just like your desk and there's like a counter and there's like a zoom-in counter and then people's faces just come, come across. And then there's like a second screen where you're back at home, but all you see is like, it's like all in text. It's just like, this is how much money you made today. This is how much money you had to spend to support your family. This is who's in your household. Like your wife, your son, your mother-in-law, and then it shows you if they've been fed properly, cause if not they'll die.

Quinn: Oh geez.

Betty: Yeah, I know. And I think that's it like, again, I haven't progressed far enough into the game to know if there's anything else, but I don't think so.

Quinn: That's really cool. Cause I feel like this is an example of the game where it has hidden complexity, where it looks like it's simple, but there's more going on and there's more of a plot that reveals itself over time than you think there's going to be. 

Betty: Yeah, cause in the beginning you just think, oh, I'm just stamping passports. It's like, literally someone comes, I stamp it, I pass it back. They move along and you are like, is this all this game is? But then like slowly they start introducing like little tiny bits of complexity. And then at one point you’re like furiously trying to figure out, oh my God, is their passport expired? Is this the right photo of them? Are they hiding a bomb? Is this work permit, does it match the passport number? Like, and you're just like, oh my God, this is so stressful. So, and you're like timed and you get paid according to how fast you work. So it can get really intense. And I also like games that don't really require a tutorial. Like I hate games where, like I recently played a couple of games where in the beginning you have to read this whole wall of texts on what are the controls, what you're supposed to do. And I was just like, oh my God. I mean this this game, it pretty much doesn't have any of that. It just starts very simple. And because it's slowly introducing complexity, like every once in a while it'd be like, you can press this button for whatever, but like, you don't need a tutorial at all, which is like, again, that's like, in my opinion, a well-designed game.

Quinn: That's really cool. One game that I've played that I find incredibly artistic and has some, a little bit of similar aspects to that actually, is Gone Home. Have you ever played Gone Home?

Betty: No, I have heard of it, but no, I haven't.

Quinn: Yeah. It’s very, very different in subject matter and gameplay, but it has the similar kind of thing in that you're kind of just dropped into a game and you don't really need like a tutorial. You figure—there’s very few things you can do, and you can figure them out really quickly. But you also have no idea… kind of the depths that the game is going to go on. And the whole premise of this game is you're literally just a young woman who comes home to her home in rural Oregon. And there's no one home and you just walk through the house and read things and see things and try to figure out where your family is basically, and figure out what's going on. You play the whole game in two or three hours. And it's really more of a, like an interactive movie than a true video game. Like you can't lose, you can't really affect the outcome, but it's just a matter of like immersing yourself into this experience that unfolds just one tiny thing at a time. And it's all, it's a whole first person game. And it’s—the animation and is very detailed in figuring out where you are as you're like walking through this whole house. And it's so focused on the story and the emotional heart of a very simple but beautiful story that it really takes advantage of the medium of video games. Because I mean, this, this really wouldn't work anywhere else. Like it wouldn't be a very interesting book or movie because the movie and book would have to explain something to you more deliberately. And all—the whole point of this is like, it's not that anything super exciting or dramatic is happening over the course of the game, it's that you are in it and you're able to uncover things for yourself that makes it an enjoyable playing experience. So I think that really takes advantage of the medium of video games as a way to express art.

Betty: Nice. Yeah, I will have to play that. So another game that actually is on the topic of being very immersive and deep in terms of its story as well as environment that I think is a really amazing game and should be considered a work of art—and I actually went online and a lot of lists of like beautiful games and artistic games seem to agree with me. And that's a game, a series, called Bioshock. Bioshock is this game where you're this guy and your plane crashes in the ocean. And you, you discover this underwater city called Rapture. It's set in the 1960s, but the city was built in like the 1940s and it was this, it was supposed to be this like super beautiful utopian city under the ocean, but it kind of became, like it was very technologically advanced, but it became like an apocalyptic nightmare, basically. I think like, you know, the people started turning on each other and then there's these, there’s these things that grant you like superhuman powers. Also, there's also these, giant robots called Big Daddys. And then, you know, you have to like, basically fight them. You're trying to like escape from the city, but in any case it's really immersive. Like, you know, you're like in the ocean and you're going around the city. And it's an action, like shooter game. You get to like, shoot enemies and you get to acquire these skills over time and obtain these like super human strengths and stuff. So when we agreed on this topic to discuss, I had mentioned yeah like I tend to like playing games mostly like, you know, first or third person, like action RPG, which is, it's things like, you know, like Grand Theft Auto and like these, these action shooter games, which probably a lot of people wouldn’t consider it as art. But this game in particular has just, again, like it's got a very deep storyline. It’s like a retro-futurism sort of feel, I think Fallout is kind of like that. You know, it's got like this, like this technology, but it's just like in a very retro style and you know like 1960s style. And you get to, um, like when I was like—the reason that I didn't play the game a lot myself was because it was quite scary. Like I would just get like uncomfortable, cause I just felt so immersed. And I felt like I was in the underground or underwater city and I was like trapped in there and I was like, oh, this is scary. And there are these like creepy little girls in there called little sisters and they’re so creepy. So anyway, but it is, yeah, like it's a really amazing immersive environment. And I think this one is an example of where, like, I think it's deeply evoking of, you know, not only emotions, but also thought, and I think totally goes against what, like Roger Ebert saying like that, you know, it doesn't have depth.

Quinn: In his defense, I'm not sure it had come out yet when he said that, but also he seemed pretty down on the whole idea of video games so he probably would have said the same thing. But no that sounds—I like your note as well, about how, um, it being an action game, but still having this level of artistry to it as well. Because I think that sometimes was action games it seems like the, everything is devoted into the action component and it is more focused on sort of this very specific like game play entertainment factor rather than perhaps reaching in emotional or artistic depth. Or you can do both! And then you get this great game.

Betty: Yeah.

Quinn: I had one more game that I wanted to shout out while we're talking about this and that’s Stardew Valley. I love this video game. This is a very popular opinion. It's an immensely popular game. But it's just so delightful. And the reason why I want to shout it out here in particular is because of its very specific art style. So it's, it's a game very close to—it’s similar to the Harvest Moon series. It's a farming simulator. Like you're a person, you get a farm. There's a village where you meet people. There's actually a wild amount of options in gameplay and it’s more focused on this idea of like resource management and developing your farm and stuff, which are the kind of games that I tend to really love, but there's also plots that you can develop and relationships that you can develop throughout the game. And it was all made by one person, which is just painful to even think about. I cannot believe this one person did all of this. But the art style in particular is beautiful. It is like a pixel art style. Like how you, what you're looking at the gameplay, you as a person are like the small avatar on the screen and you're running around, this pixel art style kind of farm. It's a bit cartoony. But everything is done with immaculate attention to detail, the colors are beautiful. The design of everything is beautiful and it's really made to not only be functional as a game and as a, as a, like this farming simulator, but also beautiful in that you can tell that there was a lot of work put into making sure that every frame of this game is aesthetically pleasing, which I think is so great for this kind of thing. And it's not the kind of game that's necessarily trying to tell you like a really important lesson. Although it does have emotional depth and it does have like these possible avenues that you can go down on, it is more focused on like sort of a gentle game play experience than that. But at the same time, like I do think that its aesthetic value is just off the charts and that it is such—like a lot of people want to do this pixel art kind of style design, but they don't do it well. And I think this is an example of someone who has perfected that art style perfectly. 

Betty: Yeah. And I'm just, I'm looking through the pictures on like Google images and it is quite stunning. Um, is it, can you like get married and have babies? 

Quinn: Yes you can! You can even get divorced if you so choose. Do you have any more games that you want to shut out?

Betty: Yeah, so, just kind of quickly, kind of similar to this game, to Stardew Valley. It's a game I mentioned earlier. So a game I absolutely love is a game called Cities Skylines. Um, so you basically, it's a simulation game where you get to build your own city. I believe people working on a game originally used to work for the developers of Sim City. Um, but that Sim City, you know, like Sim City 2000, when it first came out, I believe in 2000. It was like the first that I know of, of like a city simulation game. City Skylines, is, you know, it's like a modern version of it. And it's basically you, you build like roads, you build water pipes and sewage pipes and electrical grids, and you can zone the city by like residential, commercial, industrial. And then there’s, you know, various services as you try to grow your city, you know, like, police and education and hospitals and all kinds of things. But like the thing that I find with this game, um, again, like it's also beautiful. Like it's, it's super well done in terms of graphics and, um, visual quality. But it’s just… you get to learn so much. Like I was telling people at work about this and they were just like, oh my God, they should like have this game be in schools because you're like the mayor. You’re managing the budget, you’re managing taxes and, and at one point even gets really complicated. Like you can implement like specific recycling policies for certain districts of the city or like tax policies or development policies, um, all kinds of like nitpicky little things that you, you can choose, like to leave them on default too and just make a beautiful city. But like at one point I was like, people were complaining that the garbage wasn't being picked up. And so, I'm like, oh my God. It was because like I had a traffic jam and then I was like, okay, like, how do I solve this? And I tried to build like subways and buses, but I couldn’t afford it. And then, oh and then I built like a new high tech zone to try to reduce pollution in the city. Cause I didn't want to have like, you know, factories and pollution anymore, cause people were complaining about that. But then like I didn't have enough educated people in my city to work in the high tech district because I didn't have enough school and like universities and colleges. So then I tried to build those, but I, again, wasn't like in my budget. I was just like, oh my God, this is, this must be what it feels like to be a city planner. So I just think it it's so interesting. Like it's obviously, you know, it's still a simulation. It's not like a real city, but it does just teach you like, you know, these are just even the basics of all the complexities a city has. I love that game and I, I think it’s a work of art and I also just think it's super educational.

Quinn: That's an interesting take on a, on a game that like is maybe even more educational than they realized it was going to be. I think that's another huge criticism that’s levied at video games. I mean, there's a lot, people like to fight about video games a lot, and now they're, they're too violent or they're rotting people's brains. And obviously again, with all mediums, there are—different entries that do different things. And some of them, they teach you how to run a city. 

Betty: Exactly. Yeah. So again, like, I think, I think it's just… it's so much more, so much more like, what's it called? Immersive. And you get to, you got to just actually do it in real life. Cause I'm sure like in school, if you're taking like civics class or like, you know, a class of about city politics, I think most people probably would fall asleep. You know, I certainly did in those classes, but, um, you know, if the class was composed of playing City Skylines then I would have aced it.

Quinn: So I guess in conclusion, uh, clearly we love video games and we respect that it as an art form. We should do an anti episode where we talk about the games we don't think are art and we think are bad. [laughs]

Betty: Okay. Yeah. I can probably come up with some of those, but then—but we might get some hate mail, so yeah. 

Quinn: Yeah. We're probably not going to do that really to keep things positive. Um, but it was very fun to dive into this often under-appreciated form of art today. Thank you so much for listening to us. And if you want to see our show notes to get links to all of the games that we talked about and those art exhibits and everything, those are at relay.fm/pictorial. You can follow us on Twitter or Instagram, both @PictorialPod. And you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @aspiringrobotfm.

Betty: And we also upload these episodes to YouTube, where there is a video that goes along with it, and we will insert pictures of the things we talk about throughout the podcast right on the screen. And you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @articulationsV and I am also on YouTube at ARTiculations.

Quinn: Thanks for listening, art enthusiasts!