Museum Architecture

Quinn: Hello and welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. I'm Quinn Rose. I am someone who did not go to art school, but I love learning new things about art and architecture. 

Betty: Hi, I'm Betty. I'm also someone who did not go to them at school, but I have been working as a gallery guide at an art gallery for the past eight years. And I also love learning about the architecture of the building around me while I'm in there, but also other buildings that house art around the world. 

Quinn: So today we're going to be talking about the architecture of some different art museums all around the world. But before we get into that, we did want to take a minute to talk to you all about the partnership that Relay FM has with St. Jude this month. So it's September, which is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. And if you haven't heard of St. Jude, this is St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, and they are a hugely, hugely important organization in the fight against childhood cancer. Kids from around the world come to be treated at St. Jude with absolutely lifesaving treatment. And no family ever receives a bill for anything when they are being treated because their principal is that if you have a child who is fighting cancer, that should be your only focus and the only thing you have to worry about. Not trying to worry about hospital bills at the same time. And unfortunately, in the United States, that is a rarity. So not only are they treating kids and doing this amazing work, they also are doing cutting edge research in order to help develop better and better treatments for everyone across the world to benefit from and have done absolutely lifesaving work for thousands and thousands of children. They're obviously such a special and important organization and Relay FM and its community has been raising money for them for years and years, because one of our founders, Stephen, had a child who was treated at St. Jude. And so obviously it is very close to all of our hearts here. And for the second year in a row, Relay FM is the official podcast partner with St. Jude. And so we are asking you directly—hello, yes, you—if you would be willing to help support this amazing cause this month.

Betty: So yeah, the campaign runs through the entire month of September. Worldwide, more than 90% of children with cancer live in low income countries, and many of them lack access to adequate diagnosis and treatment, which causes many to die before reaching adulthood. So it's, as Quinn mentioned, it's very important. It's a very important organization that we can help out to continue to provide care for kids all over the world. So please help us in raising funds for this amazing organization.

Quinn: The goal this year is to raise $315,000. Why this number you ask? That is how many dollars that we raised last year. So we are hoping to meet that number. All throughout the month of September there'll be lots of different fun events and everything to celebrate milestones across those little fundraising goals, so you can check out stjude.org/relay in order to check out those milestones. And on September 18th, there will be a livestream. I don't remember exactly how many hours of live stream, it is a many hour livestream with lots of different Relay FM hosts tuning in from their homes. I'm going to be part of the livestream this year. And so you want to join in on that, there’ll be lots of fun opportunities to donate money and get little bonuses during the livestream. I highly encourage you to tune into that on September 18th, again, go to st.jude.org/relay in order to learn more information about those events, the work that St. Jude does, and most importantly, to donate to join the fight to end childhood cancer. So, as we mentioned earlier, the main topic for today's episode is actually the architecture of art museums. We've talked about lots of different museums in good ways and in bad ways. But today we're just going to be focusing mostly on the outside of the buildings. So a couple of points about this before we get into sort of specific examples of various strange and interesting architectures. This isn't something that I had thought a lot about until recently, but oftentimes museums, especially sort of the larger museums in cities, they aren't just places that house art. They are really supposed to be major cultural centers and landmarks in cities. So their goal is to not only facilitate the best experience inside the museum, but also to be an aesthetically interesting and beneficial part of the city itself.

Betty: Museums that, yeah, they don't just serve as the function for you to come in and look at art and some of the examples that I'll be talking about, and I'm sure that Quinn will be talking about, includes like how the architects and designers have thought about how these buildings can serve as like a public square. Or something that's like interwoven into the city and complements the history and the culture of the city. And it's, yeah, it's definitely something that's supposed to connect with the people and the life of the city. Not all of them achieve this I'm sure. But I think today we will be giving some examples of ones that hopefully do.

Quinn: Or at least interpret that question in very interesting ways. And one other note I had before we dive into specific examples is that museums are obviously now more and more thinking about some things that they weren't necessarily thinking of a couple decades ago, probably the number one aspect of that being sustainability and trying to make sure that they have more sustainable design, which I think is very interesting. And also extremely importantly, accessibility. Sort of first and foremost with buildings is obviously mobility aspects and making sure that everyone has equal access who has different mobility needs. But also for things like people who are hard of hearing or hard of sight, like how are they able to access these spaces? And how does the design of the building itself play into making a place more or less accessible? And so that's not something we're going to dive into too much, but it is something that I was reading about and is interesting to keep in mind in terms of less the outside of the building, but especially sort of the internal design of a museum, how are these spaces being designed for all people and not just able-bodied people?

Betty: Yes. I would agree with that. And just actually just a quick point about the accessibility part. This is not something I'm going to mention in the examples, but in the Art Gallery of Ontario, where I work, the architect for the most recent renovation of the museum, which took place about 20 years ago, at the entrance there is a ramp that it goes up to the level of the ground floor but the ramp is actually a part of the design. It's a part of this curving wavy design that the architecture has, the architect has woven throughout the entire gallery. So it's thinking about things like accessibility, but in, but not just, you know, as an afterthought, but incorporating it into the design of the space.

Quinn: I hope that as time goes on, we see more and more examples of that as well. So I brought a couple of examples to touch on, and I was really fascinated by museums that really made the choice to try to represent the essence of what they are and the space around them through the actual outside design of their buildings. And so I have a couple of examples of how this manifests in different ways. One is actually with the Museum of Pop Culture in Seattle, which is not an art museum, which—Iß was just looking at museums in general, but almost every single example, interesting example was of an art museum because obviously they have a lot more incentive to kind of be more visually creative, especially contemporary art museums. But the Museum of Pop Culture in Seattle, which I've actually been to and is awesome. I'm a big pop culture nerd, so like, it was really exciting for me. But what I thought was fascinating about this, the architecture was named Frank Gehry. And when he designed it, he wanted to create something that evoked the rock and roll experience. So he was inspired by actually cutting open electric guitars and then using those sort of sliced bits of guitar as an early model design. So the outside of the museum is like three different structures. They do not look like typical buildings. They have wavy bits on the outside. They're incredibly shiny and they're different colors. So like the center one is like this gorgeous purple ombre, and then there two structures, one on either side of it that basically look like… they're almost like skirts flowing out, but they are made of like this shiny metal to lead into the openings to the actual museum. So it's definitely a super eye catching design. And I loved reading about how it was literally inspired by the inside of guitars, because that is exactly what the entire experience of the museum is supposed to evoke. It's supposed to be about music and other aspects of pop culture. The exterior itself is made out of 3000 panels, which are made out of 21,000 individually cut stainless steel and painted aluminum shingles. So they look different in different light conditions. They're going to change if you're looking at it from different angles and it's supposed to represent the energy and the fluidity of music, which I think it does really well. And I love seeing that kind of central thesis of a space be expressed so evocatively in its structure.

Betty: The architect who did this job, Frank Gehry, is actually the same architect who did the AGO.

Quinn: Oh my God. Wait, I didn't know that.

Betty: Yeah, so our Canadian guy! And this one, actually, I, this was one of the ones that I was thinking of talking about, but you know, I didn’t want to just talk about, you know the AGO and people who designed the AGO. But, the funny thing is that yeah, because this building is like so crazy and his, his buildings are generally very like fluid. Apparently like when he was first hired to do the design for the AGO, a lot of the like stakeholders were like, oh no, not this guy. He's going to make our lovely classical building into like, some like guitar. But I think it's good. Like even though a lot of his buildings look similar, it is interesting that he kind of has a reason like this one, as you said, is inspired by cutting open an electric guitar. And the AGO, he's inspired like by the fluid, curvy curvature shape of our ship, model ship collection. So he, you know, that's why ours look like it's like at the hull of a ship when you look at the exterior. Even though like a lot of these really famous architects, they have like a style and kind of some of them, all their buildings kind of look the same, at least he has a rationale behind what he's doing.

Quinn: That's fair enough. Maybe he's just picking projects that he can bend to his style. 

Betty: The one that I want to talk about is actually kind of a similar theme as the one that you just mentioned. It's the Royal Ontario Museum here in Toronto, Ontario, which is the city that I live in. And this is, it’s apparently, it's the largest museum in Canada, which I was surprised to learn about. So it's an art as well as natural history museum. So it has like an extensive art collection that goes from ancient to contemporary. And then it has dinosaur and all kinds of things. The Royal Ontario Museum, it's a very old building that actually went through renovations back in the early 2000s when it was expanding its collection. They—in 2002, they hired the architect Daniel Libeskind to be the lead architect on this project. And Libeskind is, he's a very well known architect. He probably is most famous for doing the Jewish Museum in Berlin. So of course like his style is the jagged crystals and the ROM is another example of that. But he did say that he was inspired by the ROM’s gem collection. So the ROM has an extensive, like, precious stone and gem collection. Then there's lots of like rocks that are like jagged crystals. So he said that was one of his inspirations, even though it seems like the inspiration for all of his buildings. In the link I just sent you, there is a, like he did a little napkin sketch. So he just sketched this like explosion, exploding crystal on a napkin one day when he was attending a family wedding at the ROM, which at the time was this very like classical, you know, like neoclassical, like 19th century looking building. Very European. And he's kinda just exploded a crystal into the facade. The reason I wanted to talk about this, and it’s interesting, is because it actually is, it was named like the most hated building in Canada. So like, like when it was first completed, almost everybody hated it. And even today, I think a lot of people still hate it, but it's one of those buildings that I think for Torontonians it's kind of grown on us. The crystal, so it's in the entrance facade and I, as you mentioned earlier, accessibility of a lot of like old museums is terrible. Usually you have to go up these steps, which is like a very classical way of doing a building. The new entrance that's around the corner is now like a gradual ramp that goes from the sidewalk to the main entrance. So making it accessible. And you walk into these jagged crystals to enter the building. So the walls also kind of act as like a cover for the, for the pedestrian travel that's underneath the entrance. So yeah, when it was first built, the Global Mail, which is a newspaper here in Canada, one of the reviewers said that “the new ROM rages at the world,” and she thought it was “oppressive, angsty and hellish.” There's an anonymous architect, I guess they didn't want to say who they are, says “to be perfectly frank,I think it's a disaster. One of my clients said it's a good thing she's losing her eyesight.”

Quinn: Wow.

Betty: And then the Washington Post said “Daniel Libeskind's addition to the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto surpasses the ugliest of bland functional buildings by being both ugly and useless.”

Quinn: Okay. Well, everyone's being incredibly dramatic. I think it's really cool.

Betty: Yeah, it's not, it's not that bad. So they definitely were. And it kind of just goes on and on about how bad it is. I mean, one personal criticism I guess I do have with the crystals is that it is very easy to get lost in there. Like again, like we're talking a lot about the exterior of the building, but really like for me, doing a lot of interior renos. I'm very interested in like, if it actually functions on the inside. And a lot of like the sharp corners of the crystals, it’s unusable space. And when you're in there, you just, you have no idea where you're going. So that functionally it probably was not the best choice, but, I wouldn't go as far to say it's like, hell on earth.

Quinn: Yeah. I actually think it’s quite pretty. I mean, I can't judge what it's like on the inside, cause I haven't been there, but I mean, if I was walking down the street, this would definitely catch my eye. I love when you were talking about it being inspired by actual crystals, you could definitely see that influence. And I think it captures that really well. I really like it.

Betty: Yeah, well, you should definitely come visit and we'll try to not get lost in there. 

Quinn: Well, I have another controversial museum structure to discuss this is the Ordos museum in Inner Mongolia in China. The best way I can describe what this museum sort of physically looks like from the outside is, you know sometimes when you have an old pillow and it's like really lumpy and you just, and then it's not smooth. Like, it’s, you toss it down and you notice it's got all these lumps sticking out of it in different places. So that's kind of what this museum looks like, but in a cool way. It’s this giant like kind of oval structure, but it has all these different parts coming out of it. It's all entirely covered in these strips of polished aluminum. And so it is really strange looking. I do love it. And it's super meaningful in the choices that's made it, it's designed to sort of the space that it is in. So it's part of the city of Ordos, which is until recently it was like part of the Gobi Desert. Total nature place away from urban areas. But more recently, there has been a lot more urban development in this space and sort of this modern march of technology and cutting edge technology. And taking on the sort of very like angular urban planning approach that kind of defines contemporary cities. And so this was created in a reaction to that and wanting to create this more natural irregular shape that's more close to something that you would see in nature. And so it sort of stands in this modernized area, but there's still this backdrop of the desert. And at the same time, it still does kind of represent this cutting edge contemporary idea, because it is like completely covered in polished metal. And so that obviously evokes a very modern technology image to us as well. The whole point of this museum is to both celebrate sort of the history and the culture of the Mongolian people and to connect that symbolically with their future. And it also has a practical purpose as well, because there is like, lots of sandstorms. And so having this more organic building shape is actually able to withstand weather events a lot better. It’s actually protecting the exhibits they're in a much better than a sort of standard angular building would. Which also, you know, lots of metaphors because this is a history and culture museum that is symbolically and literally protecting history and culture of the people in the area.

Betty: It reminds me or evokes, like images of Mongolian yurts, kind of like where the Mongolians would build. And that's, and those like yurts are very round and because they're usually made of soft material, like you were mentioning, it kind of looks like a pillow because those are usually soft. It looks more like mushy and oval shaped. And so I think, yeah, as opposed to the recent developments of just, you know, like angular buildings in the urban area areas. This kind of can evoke some like traditional design and traditional aesthetics of what maybe the culture of the people in this area would have been used to.

Quinn: And the design of it is a bit polarizing because it is extremely weird. But I think it's very cool and I love all that it represents. And it also is gigantic. It's just so large. This is an absolutely huge museum it looks like, and so it seems like it'd be really fun to walk around. And the inside it's this designed to be like very open space. It's all white on the inside of thoughts of airy areas, lots of windows. And so it seems like a very cool place to walk around. 

Betty: I do love how much like natural light it gets. Cause again, like a lot of museums don't have windows at all, or very few and it’s quite dark and it has to be extensively lit. And this, yeah, this definitely looks like during the day it would be beautiful to walk around in.

Quinn: Yeah.

Betty: So my next example is probably actually less controversial than what you would, what you would presume. But it's, you know, it's still similar to the examples we just gave. It's still kind of weird looking. The one I want to talk about is the Pompidou Center in Paris, France. It's a building that houses the public information library. So it has a library in it, and it has the Musée National d'Art Moderne, which is their National Modern Art Museum. And so it, and it has a center for music and acoustic research in there. So it's kind of a multipurpose space that was designed. And it was designed by two architects, Renzo Piano and Richard Rogers. They're also very famous architects now, but at the time in the 1970s, they were, I think they were kind of just starting out. They had a, they partnered in an architecture firm together and they only had like 14 projects under their belt, but they won the competition to design this museum. There were these like young guys who were like, okay, cool. Let's do something crazy. So it was the first example of like, what's called an inside-out building often in architecture. And so what it has is like, most buildings will have like an exterior facade, like stone or metal or whatever. And then on the inside, a lot of the things that I have to work on in projects that people don't see are things like structural systems, mechanical systems, like vents and pipes and HVAC and all that. And circulation and stuff like that. But on this building, they flip that and exposed the inside on the exterior of the building. Richard Rogers will go on to design a bunch of buildings that look like this, where you see all it's like exposed systems on the outside. So instead of like hiding all this, you know, gunky services and structural stuff, they're kind of like celebrating it. The reason they did this was they wanted to free up the space on the inside. They wanted each floor to be uninterrupted. So instead of having load bearing structures like columns and these load bearing walls, it can just be an, like an open space, which is very helpful for an art museum, but also very helpful for flexibility in terms of, you know, rearranging and putting different exhibitions on and stuff like that. So the space can be like divided up and reorganized in like any way possible basically, within the constraint of the floor plan. So, and then in on their design of the exterior services, they're also color coded. They also color-coded it. So they have, it's actually very bright and very colorful when you are walking around the building. So they have blue for air circulation and air conditioning, yellow for electricity circulation, green for water circulation, and red for people circulation. Which is like escalators and elevators and stairs and such. So I've been to this, I've been in Paris and I’ve seen the outside, I really wanted to go in, but unfortunately I was only in Paris for three days and this was not on the agenda. I was very sad. But just being able to see the outside of this building, like once you walk into that area, you're just like, oh my God, this is crazy. I love this one article in National Geographic when it was first completed, their reaction to the design is that it's “love at second sight.” Cause the first sight you're just like, WTF. And then second sight you're like, that’s awesome. Richard Rogers actually would go on to win the Pritzker Prize, which is the highest, most prestigious prize in architecture. And the Pritzker jury said the Pompidou revolutionized museums and transformed what had once elite monuments into popular places of social and cultural exchange woven into the heart of the city. So this goes back to what we talked about in the beginning that like the museum is not just a place to house art. It's not just like a storage and a place where you just walk in and look at pictures. It's like a public square. It's where we come for knowledge and information and, and have social activities, which, you know, a lot of museums and organizations around the world are really trying to achieve that vision. And this was kind of probably one of the first places where it kind of, it really embodied that. And because of how unique the building is, it attracted a lot of attention, a lot of people to want to come and check it out.

Quinn: Yeah. My only real comment on this is that I also have walked by this building and I did not know what it was at all, but I was like, what is that? And I think we took pictures of the outside and we couldn't figure out what it was cause it's so industrial looking from the outside because of all the piping and stuff. And it actually reminded me of a waterpark. It seems like they should be water slides. And so I also did not get the chance to actually go in, but I can confirm that it's very eye catching and it does make people want to stop and discuss. So that's pretty great.

Betty: Yeah, for sure.

Quinn: So the last museum that I wanted to bring, I don't have a ton to say about it, but I just wanted to quickly mention that Museum of Contemporary Art in Niteroi. This is so cool. It's in Rio de Janeiro and it basically looks… forgive me for describing it like this, but it does basically look like a flying saucer. It’s out on what appears to be like this little peninsula. And so parts of it are overlooking the water. And I said forgive me for that description because it's very explicitly not a flying saucer. That's what people think when they see it. But the quote from the architect is, I'm actually just gonna read this whole quote, cause it's really nice. “It's a building located on a wonderful site, which I liked very much and that made the design process quite easy. It is a headlands surrounded by the sea and the building is located in its middle. The problem was to find out how to support it. And then the idea for Niteroi came to my mind naturally. It was like a flower. Some see it as a flying saucer, but it's not that. It’s a flower.”

Betty: It's a very round flower. 

Quinn: It's a very round flower. Vut I do, I love that idea of it, even though like when I look at this, I don't think “well that looks like a flower.” But when he describes it like that as a flower, rising from the rock. And can you imagine, like standing inside this building and being able to overlook, it looks like you're just floating above the sea when you're actually inside it. And that's beautiful. And so I love this great interpretation of the space that it's in and this way to use a very unusual design in order to create one, definitely an eye catching building. It's not the prettiest building that we've talked about today. I wouldn't describe it as a flower, like I said, but I do think it's quite unique. And you know, this person really went out on a limb to make this, which is great. And I have to imagine that the experience of actually being in the museum is probably actually quite magical because of the way that it designed to overlook the water like that. So I really appreciate that. And because it's like as flying saucer and it's sort of raised off the ground, there's a giant column in the middle, which is where I assume you enter the museum. But because of that, it creates this huge shaded area, which allows for basically a public space for people to be able to sit out there in the shade underneath the museum, which is very cool. And goes back to what I was saying is museums like really striving to be not only places that house culture but places that are landmarks of culture in the cities and other places. And so I think that definitely fulfills that by creating this space to have that basically a public square underneath the architecture of the museum. That's really cool. 

Betty: Yeah. I actually really love the ramp that goes up to it. It's like a spiraling ramp. It almost looks like a top, or like the saucer—quote, unquote saucer—part looks like a top. And then it looks like there's like a little spiral that comes off of it. And the ramp is painted in like bright red, which is very like eye-catching. And the part where I think you mentioned it where like, so when you're on the inside and you're on the edge of the flower, and there's, I guess the pedals are these like cantilevering beams and there's, and it's a glass that's slanted. So you can kind of like look outward at the city and the beach and the water, which is like, I would love to be inside there, to see what that view would be like. And plus it looks really good at night when it's lit up from the bottom. 

Quinn: Yeah. That is really cool. Lot of these museums when they're lit up at night is just magical.

Betty: Lovely. Okay. Well, my last example that I wanted to talk about is also quite interesting and again, controversial. Although I didn't, I didn't expect it to be, cause it's probably the most tame of the example that we, that we brought up. So this is the design of the Louvre entrance, which is in the middle all of the courtyard at the Louvre museum in Paris, France. Another example from France. So it's these large metal pyramids that was designed by American architect I. M. Pei. So there's one large pyramid and it's surrounded by three small pyramids. So it's in the main courtyard of the Louvre palace and the large pyramid serves as the main entrance to the Louvre museum. So, as many of you may know, the Louvre is the world's largest art museum. And the reason this redesign happened back in the 1980s was because it, there was like so much traffic going through the museum building, the building was like in disrepair and it was, you know, a kind of a crazy maze and people were getting lost and it was just really disorganized. So they needed a way to have a new entrance somewhere else so the existing entrance doesn't continue to get damaged and also like reorganize the flow so that, you know, people aren't just like getting lost for like weeks inside this museum, which you probably could. It's very large. So I. M. Pei was brought on to kind of do the reorganization and he ended up deciding to put the main entrance as in the middle and use an underground lobby beneath it, which he can create a large space for like a reception area, like a lounge, and also, you know, create just more amenities spaces for the, for the museum, but it doesn't disrupt the actual building itself. And it's kind of in a way, other than the pyramid that penetrates out from the middle, it’s kind of hidden from view when you're, when you're looking at the middle. He has, he did a very effective plan with a central concourse and there's various destinations in like this subterranean network. And so he was inspired by the ancient atriums of Pompei villas, but at the same time… so there's a historic inspiration, but at the same time, in like industrial and metal and glass of the pyramid kind of evokes this like a modern or like corporate office building look, and is, you know, evoking like the busy movement of people in the city or in like rail concourses or airports. So it's like, like similar to what I mentioned earlier about like the ROM it's this mixture of like this classical design with, like a modern, with this like contemporary straight edge jagged metal and glass design. In terms of, I think in terms of design, it was like quite successful in terms of achieving the vision of the Louvre wanting to, like make the space functional. But at the time, when it was first proposed and I think even during construction, it was quite controversial because of one, this like modern style of like glass and steel was a lot of people felt like it was inconsistent with the classic French Renaissance style and the history of the Louvre. And also a lot of people thought like the pyramid is an Egyptian symbol. So that's kind of weird like that it would be in France. And also a lot of people think the pyramid symbolized death because it often is tombs of Egypt pharaohs. So they thought yeah, that's kind of weird that it's like a death symbol from Egypt in the middle of Paris. And of course, lastly, it was controversial because the architect was a Chinese-American architect and they were like, he is not French. So, but I think, you know, all of these reasons kind of suck.

Quinn: Yeah. It is interesting to hear about it being so controversial, especially because it is such an iconic feature of Paris today.

Betty: Yeah, exactly. It's, it's kind of like the, I think it's like, you know, a lot of Parisians and I guess maybe French citizens were complaining that this is not French enough. Like whether it's the architect or the design or the symbol, but now it's like… You just think of Paris and you think of France, when you, when you see this structure.

Quinn: Well interestingly enough, there actually is a moment in the movie The DaVinci code where Parisian complains about the pyramid at the Louvre. And what a random thing for me to bring up, you may think, but it's not random at all because we actually recorded a very special bonus episode talking about the bonkers movie, The DaVinci Code. And its scenes that take place in the Louvre and other examples of use of art throughout this movie. That episode is actually going to be coming out just in two days on September 10th. That's two days from the day that this episode is going live and you can hear that by going to relay.fm/membership and signing up to support our show. So, obviously at the beginning of this episode, we did a big plug for St. Jude. They quite obviously are a better use of your money than us, but if you are able to donate to St. Jude and you would still like to support our show and hear this very fun bonus episode, you can do that. Relaly.fm/membership. There's also a link in the show notes and we of course appreciate your support very much. 

Betty: Yeah, it was a really fun episode to record, Quinn and I, as you will hear, if you choose to subscribe to our membership, that we have very intense thoughts about this movie. And I particularly, I think—the first time I saw this movie was expecting an art movie, I, it was a different result. Is was what I ended up perceiving from it. But yeah. So in this episode you heard a lot of actual factual information about buildings. In this other episode, you may not.

Quinn: You’ll hear a lot of myths. Yeah, no, it's not a good movie, but it was very fun to talk about. Thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Pictorial, you can find our show notes at relay.fm/pictorial. And you can also find us on Twitter or Instagram @PictorialPod. You can also follow me on Twitter or Instagram @aspiringrobotfm.

Betty: And you can follow me on Twitter or Instagram @articulationsV. I am also on YouTube as ARTiculations. And speaking of YouTube, we also upload these podcast episodes to our YouTube channel Pictorial Podcasts, where we’ll edit in images of what we talk about along the way for you to check out where you're listening.

Quinn: But also seriously st.jude.org/relay. Check it out! Thanks for listening, art enthusiasts!