Indigenous Artists (Part 1)

Quinn: Hello and welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. I'm Quinn Rose, and I am someone who did not go to art school, but I love to continually learn about new art. 

Betty: And I'm Betty. I'm also someone who did not go to art school, but I have been working as a gallery guide at an art gallery for the past eight years where I also get to learn a lot about new art. And I also do that outside the gallery too. 

Quinn: So today we are kicking off another very special two-part episode series, and this one is focused all about Indigenous art. And so this is broadly being divided into two episodes. One of which is going to be pretty depressing, and the other one is going to be not as depressing. So here's how this is going to go. Basically, in this first episode, we really want to talk about the historical context of a lot of the Indigenous artists who are working today that we're going to be talking about in the next episode, as well as setting the stage in sort of how museums treat art and artifacts that were made by Indigenous people. We’re focusing on the United States and Canada, which is where we are from. This is a bit like the episode we did a little while back about the British Museum and the looting of objects from various countries around the world, through colonialism, and how they are all now in the British Museum among other places. But instead of sort of focusing in on a specific objects in this episode, like we mostly did in that British Museum episode, we're going to be doing more of a general overview of what the actual history of this is and the major issues that have been around for centuries and still today in, I mean, obviously, in just sort of general relationships and the way that different governments treat Indigenous tribes, but also specifically in the art world, and the way that art made by Indigenous peoples is treated in mainstream museums.

Betty: I personally, I work in a museum as mentioned earlier, an art museum where there are displays of artists from all over the world, including Canada. We have a huge display of Canadian art. And so—including Indigenous Canadian art. And that has been changing over the years, of course, like a lot of ways we used to display we no longer do. And it's kind of going through a continual evolution. And yeah, so as Quinn mentioned, we're going to be talking about the context of these objects and kind of a general overview of Indigenous history in North America, which obviously is impossible to cover in even a podcast. But then we’ll be giving a general, a brief overview and specifically, yeah, we'll be talking a little more about some of the history and maybe even like political history that's been going on in the last century or two. And you may hear like, through some of our descriptions of, you know, these contexts, like we're not always talking about art and artworks. And that's because in order to understand and where these artists are coming from, and in order to understand the context, we can't just talk about art. We have to talk about how these relationships and histories and people, and the way they live and all these complex relationships ended up this way. That's kind of why you may not hear as much in this episode about art itself, or artists themselves, and just more about general history. And obviously we'll be glossing over a lot of information because you know, we don't have 10 years of recording time.

Quinn: Yeah. We are pretty much going to be trying to gloss over decades and decades of history in this one episode. So this is obviously barely scratching the surface and there will be more links in the description for further reading. If there is something that you would specifically like to learn more about that we mentioned today, those links will be available.

Betty: Great. Yeah. So, I kind of want to initially go over like a brief early history of Indigenous people in North America, and then get a little bit in depth of what's really been going on in the last couple hundred years. And so a lot of my research is going, a lot of my research and information is more focused on Canada cause that's where I happen to live, but a lot of this will pertain to the US as well. And then obviously, you know, as we get closer to present day, we'll be talking about both countries. But as many people may or may not know, so North America has been inhabited for over 10,000 years. It's believed that the first inhabitants arrived in Canada around 14,000 years ago. And they most likely entered through, what was at the time, a land bridge where the Bering Sea is. And so it’s believed, or anthropologists believe that people entered the Americas by pursuing mammals like the beaver, musk ox, mastodons, woolly mammoths, and early caribou. So, you know, they follow them into what's the present day Canada and the US. And so obviously there were, they spread out throughout all of the Americas and eventually there were many different peoples and nations and civilizations all over the place. But just as an example, where I live, which is Southern Ontario, the Wyandot people, initially most likely came here along the Eramosa river, I think that's what it's called, around 8,000 to 7,000 BCE. So that was about 10,000 years ago. So where I live has been inhabited for about 10,000 years.

Quinn: I should also mention here that I literally live in Chicago, which is actually named—as many, many things in North America are—from an Indigenous word. It's from a Miami-Illinois word. The initial word was “shikaakwa”, which means stinky onion. So that's literally what Chicago is. It's like a French-inized version of that word. Because there's a garlic plant that grows along the river and I guess that's actually why it's called, but also cause this city is a stinky onion, I guess. And then where I grew up in Downeast Maine, I grew up really close to an actual Passamaquoddy reservation. And so the Passamaquoddy tribe is still very active in the area. Although obviously not as much as it used to before all their land was stolen, but there still is an active reservation where I grew up. And so I was lucky enough to have some connection to the Indigenous people in the area where I was raised.

Betty: Yeah, that's really interesting to know. I didn't know that was what Chicago was called. I didn't smell a lot of stinky onion when I visited, but I'll pay more attention next time. [both laugh] And I think that the important thing that is, or one of the important things to point out is that a lot of First Nations civilizations were permanent urban settlements. So while a lot of First Nations people are hunter gatherers and nomadic, many of them did settle in permanent cities, agriculture, and they had like civic monuments and architecture and complex social hierarchies and governments and, you know, sort of all the kinds of things that other people around the world would have. And so, cause I think like one misconception I do hear about is people think like all First Nations people in Canada and the US were hunter gatherers or nomadic. Like completely and never settled into nation states and potentially, this is like one of the arguments that people make on why European colonialism is somewhat justified, cause it gave these people governing structures and things like that, but they already had it. Some of the things I want to talk about in terms of recent Canadian histories is a thing called treaties. So treaties are all over the world. Many different countries have treaties with each other, like, you know, peace treaties. They are agreements between different people and in Canada we have a lot of them. And a lot of them are between the First Nations people and the official government. So, in fact, most of the, there's a series of treaties, like official treaties that are agreed upon between First Nations in Canada and like the official Canadian government, they actually mostly date from 1871 to 1921. So again, these are recent, they weren't signed like 400 years ago. There were signed about a hundred years ago from now. And so these policies are meant to ratify agreements, again between Canada and Aboriginal people. And they're things like, you know, land treaties, certain rights to hunting and fishing, just certain rights in general. And so the Supreme Court of Canada actually argued that treaties serve as to reconcile preexisting Aboriginal sovereignty and assumed crown sovereignty. And so essentially First Nations people, they interpret the agreements to last quote, “as long as the sun shines, grass grows and river flows.” So these treaties are not like, they don't expire in 10, 20 years. They are forever just like peace treaties. If you signed a peace treaty with Japan, it's not like we'll have peace for 50 years, then we'll invade you again. It's no, we have peace forever until something else gets declared or signed. And more specifically, like for example, where I live here in Toronto, we're covered under what's called Treaty 13 with the Mississaugas of the Credit. So that's a treaty that was established when Toronto, when its area was purchased by the Europeans settlers from various people who lived on this land at the time. However, the problem with that treaty is there were a lot of disputes and disagreements that were never worked out. A lot of the people who supposedly had rights to the land didn't actually. So, it's really a mess. But what some people, I don't know if the US does this but in Canada, a lot of places now read land acknowledgements. So they'll, it might be on their website. It might be on the wall of a building. It might be, somebody might say it when they're making like an official presentation. And some people think like, oh, land acknowledgements, it's just like pandering to Indigenous people. Maybe sometimes it is. But a lot of these land acknowledgements is to recognize these official legal treaties that were signed. Which acknowledges, you know, what rights somebody has. So it's not… like, it's not just a ceremonial thing. It's like a legally binding agreement. So that's what I think I want to emphasize. And then the other thing is, so, an art related aspect of this is, for example, in the AGO and maybe a lot of places in, that have Indigenous museums and quote, unquote
“artifacts,” they’ll have these belts. They're called Wampum belts. There are these tubular, or they're made of tubular beads, that are made from shells or sometimes like other animal feathers and quills. And they're primarily used by Aboriginal people of the Eastern Woodlands to make like ornamental or ceremonial, just like agreements. And so a lot of these treaties are written on them. So you'll see these treaties being displayed, again some of them are really beautiful, but they're also historical. They signify these like legal agreements between the Europeans and, whoever was living on the land at the time. And again, there were signed like about a hundred years ago. So for people to say like, oh, forget about it. That was like hundreds of years ago. It's like, well, maybe then you don't own your house. Cause like you're, if you've lived in your house for 50 years and somebody comes and says, “actually that was a long time ago, I'm just going to take it.” Would you be happy? Probably not. 

Quinn: Similar to Canada, the United States does have like over 500 treaties with various Native American tribes. They are supposed to be like permanent agreements until some other like kind of treaty or something like that would replace them. However, the United States government has violated every single one, like not… Not some, not even most, every single one has been violated by the United States government. Even though they have been violated, they still are under legal effect. And they still are, you know, supposed to be in effect today. So a lot of Native Americans are still fighting to like, get these treaty rights back in place, or like to maintain them in various courts around the country. And so in the ones that I have records of here, it's over the course of about a hundred years from the late 1700s to the late 1800s is when all of these were signed. But they still all have active legal effect today. And many of them are like an active legal battle in courts right now.

Betty: For sure, yeah. And Canadian government is essentially the same, has the same record of violating all of them. Not surprisingly. So, and I just realized, we both kind of been, I’ve at least have been using like words like Indigenous and Native kind of interchangeably and in Canada there are actually are a few like legal definitions for these terms. But of course like, you know, sometimes I'm using them interchangeably without knowing it. So generally what, like when I, when people use the word Indigenous, like they mean people who are indigenous to a region, who cannot trace their ancestry to another part of the world. One of the reasons Canadian people and Canadian Natives, don’t always use the term Native is because it could be confusing because some people think “native” means “I was born here.” So if you were born in Canada or the US some people think “I'm native to this country,” which I guess you could interpret it that way, but Indigenous goes one step further and says, I'm not just, I wasn't just born here. All of the ancestry I could ever trace was born here. And then in Canada, there's also a lot of other terms. I won't go through all of them, but the term First Nations is that often used to encompass pretty much anyone who is an Indigenous person in Canada or North America, or somebody who belongs either in a tribe or in actually, an Indigenous nation. But I don't really know, I actually still don't know why, maybe someone can explain to me is for some reason in Canada, this term is applied to everybody except Inuits. But so the other word I do want to bring up, which is controversial, is that in Canada, in some cases we still use the word Indian because of its legal representation. We had the introduction of the Indian Act in 1876, which was an act that actually granted certain rights and promises to people who fall under this status as a status Indian. So it's used in a lot of legal documents, and a lot of people who are Indigenous Canadian people will say “I'm an Indian.” And either they say that by preference, or they say that as a, “I'm an Indian, I'm entitled to this, this, this, and this.” But we have two different types of Indians. We have status Indian, which is the government acknowledges this person’s right to live either on the reserve and access the treaty rights and whatever they're entitled to. A non-status Indian is someone who is Indigenous, is, you know, a Native or Inuit. But the government does not acknowledge that person as an Indian for a lot of different reasons. So for example, Newfoundland up until recently actually didn’t recognize the Mi’kmaq people, the first people that was encountered. And Newfoundland was like, “we don't have Natives here.”

Quinn: Oh God.

Betty: And then the Natives, the Mi’kmaq were, like, hi. So more recently they were recognized.

Quinn: I think the Indigenous has become much more popular, especially in sort of like youth circles and online circles, because it is an umbrella term where you can, you're saying like Indigenous Americans, Indigenous Canadians, Indigenous Australians is another huge group of concern. And it also like doesn't have this same confusion that happens sometimes where like people who are not Indigenous co-opting—lots of Indigenous terms actually—but like the word Native specifically in saying like, “oh, I'm a native New Yorker” and it's like, are you, or did you just grow up in New York? Cause like, I think those words mean two different things. So it’s just both like broad in a way to be able to describe lots of different people and lots of different areas in the world, depending on what word you add after it. But also specific in what it actually means without sort of other definitions watering it down.

Betty: Exactly. So like, it's quite, in some cases it can be quite complex and in some cases, yeah, there are overarching terms that can be more inclusive of everyone who is Indigenous to a particular land. And so the previously mentioned statuses, Indian status. So an Indigenous person could choose to, I guess, assimilate, like become non-Native. So they can choose to absolve or they can choose to give up all of their legal rights and title as being an Indian and choose to just become like a subject of the queen or whatever Canadian. But the problem is they, a lot of them didn't integrate and a lot of them couldn't and then at the same time lost the race of what they previously had. So, you know, it's kind of like, losing on all fronts, in that case.

Quinn: Yeah. There were massive horrific campaigns, across the US and I'm assuming in Canada as well to try to force Native people into as you say, like assimilating into a different culture and in sort of these legal incentives and like making this an official legal process of like “sign on the dotted line and give up your citizenship.” But also just reeducation schools, and forcing Native children to not speak their own languages and to not learn their own crafts and be connected with their own culture and heritage. That went on for so long and had an incredibly devastating effect into the history and the art and the language and culture and everything of Native American people in this attempt to basically eradicate their culture because I guess killing most of them wasn't enough. And so the governments were like, well, we're still gonna keep trying to murder them. But in the meantime, I guess we can also try to force them to become as close to white people as possible. And I mean, this is what we started with and what we're sort of getting to overall as we're getting closer and closer to actual art conversation, but a huge problem around all of this is that in schools and in museums, Native American culture, Native Canadian culture and First Nations is presented as something that is in the past and like closer to the natural world and sort of natural history than it is to, like, art museums and like high culture and art. When, first of all, that's complete BS. And second of all is a living, breathing culture and like many, many different nations of peoples that are alive right now despite our government's best efforts over the centuries, but most public education and most large art museums are actively working in this basically conspiracy campaign to make us think that Indigenous peoples don't really exist anymore.

Betty: Just one last thing, as you mentioned earlier in schools, the thing that I do, I think many people internationally would have heard about Canada doing. And again, this isn't specific to Canada, but we did do some of the most horrific things in this respect is, our residential school system. So again, similar to the Scoop, there was an official policy and official program by the Canadian government, it’s the department of Indian Affairs. Where they created a school system with the purpose of removing Indigenous children from their homes, removing them from their own own culture and to assimilate into Canadian culture. They literally use the words to "kill the Indian in the child.” Referring back to your murder comment earlier, they were like, yeah, we're not killing them literally, we’re just killing the Indian in them. So over the course of the system, I read the lower estimate is 150,000 kids were placed in residential schools and actually the residential school related deaths is actually an unknown mystery. But that's estimated between 3,000 and 6,000. So the program began in 1847 and ended, not kidding, in 1996.

Quinn: Yeah.

Betty: It was in partnership with Christian churches and they ran over 130 different boarding schools across Canada. So the school was like, you know, they're meant to be educational, but there were often plague ridden, under funded, full of disease and abuse of all sorts. A lot of the kids came out of these systems, again, with the intention that they would fit into mainstream Canadian culture, but they didn’t. And they were subject still to racism, and they also couldn't fit back into their own communities cause they no longer speak the language or have any idea about their culture. And then they, that's one of the many reasons why many Native Canadians today who suffer from post traumatic stress, alcoholism, substance abuse, suicide, and basically you name it. It, you know, like over, like it's believed that over, like about one third of  children were taken to these residential schools. So as much as one third of all Indigenous Canadians today experienced this type of abuse for their entire childhood. In June 2008 the, at the time, Prime Minister Stephen Harper actually offered a public apology on behalf of the government of Canada. He also invoked the start of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which was established to uncover the truth about the schools. And I believe the publication of the TRC report came out in 2015. A lot of people seem to think it was Trudeau, cause obviously it came out when Trudeau was Prime Minister. A lot of people think like Trudeau created the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, but it was actually our conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper, who did that. So, obviously, you know, like Trudeau and our liberal government also supported, but this is a bi-partisan support by like all Canadian governments recognizing this as horrific. And in addition to that, because of what they did and how they forced Indigenous people to assimilate into like a Eurocentric society. And again, this whole like killing, literally killing, the Indian in the person, Canada actually technically violated the United Nations genocide convention that Canada ourselves signed in 1949 and was passed through our parliament in 1952. So a lot of people actually think that Canada can be tried in the international court for genocide. So like, just so people understand the extent of how bad this was. Like it's unanimously agreed that it’s horrific, not just by Canada, not just by Indigenous people, but by the entire world.

Quinn: Yeah. I do have to laugh a little bit and it's like—the government, our government agrees that it was horrific and it's like, “oh, they said sorry.” And then they wrote a report about it. Like, what did, what did you do though? Like what did you actually do to help make up for it? [sighs] And on the United Nations things as well, like, when I mentioned before, or that the United States is violated every treaty with Native American tribes… And that those, some of those treaties are being fought in court right now. Those treaties are also being fought before the United Nations for very similar reasons, of the United States government committing genocide against its Indigenous peoples. Yeah, fun! Very cheerful topic we've done today. But, I mean, this is very serious, very current stuff going on.

Betty: Definitely. And I do just want to say that, like, yeah, we have a lot of Indigenous art in the gallery that I work in. And often when I have tours with—a lot of tourists do visit, cause we're one of the largest, you know, it's like a top tourism spot when you come to Toronto. And so I get a lot of international visitors and I do have to explain the background and, for some to understand some of the Indigenous art and yeah, of course, like usually I, like, I just see like shocked faces with jaws on the floor when I talk about some of this stuff. And again, like, I love Canada. I love my country. Like I'm an immigrant myself. I am not “native” to Canada. So, you know, Canadians in general, like 99.9% have been the loveliest people, and I wouldn't live anywhere else in the world. And I think despite the many problems in our government, they at least try sometimes. So like, I do want to say like, I love living in this country, but it's very important to recognize our history and, like, yeah, obviously, you know, we have this report and the government said, sorry. Which is not doing that much, but it is at least, you know, the first step in reconciliation is to recognize we did these things. And I do think, like people I know in my life, if they listen to this podcast will not be happy with me. Cause a lot of people are still in denial about the actual history of Canada and to these people I just want to say, you can stop listening if you’re that angry. No, listen to the next one, next podcast is going to be less depressing.

Quinn: And as we mentioned before, a lot of stuff that we talked about today is going to be very directly relevant in to the artists that we are talking about in the next episode. But to touch on a few things and sort of contemporary museum culture of today, I've already ranted a bit about this, but besides the massive problems that like virtually like every museum that has Indigenous art in it is stolen in some way or another, unless it's by a contemporary artist who did sell that piece to a collector or a museum, like that's where it all came from. Because they were either directly stolen at the time, or there was an agreement made that was later broken, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, pretty much all of it, as well as this problem with framing that we've already talked about a bunch about how museums treat Indigenous cultures like they are things of the past instead of things of the present slash with a direct lineage to the present. And then another huge thing is that a lot of museums have items that are not just art pieces, but are actually sacred to different tribes. They are religious items or even actual human remains. And a very important piece of legislation related to this in the United States is called NAGPRA, which is the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act. So what that means is that basically, hey, if you are a museum that has any kind of federal funding, then you have to give it back. Like specifically with human remains, and related to burial and graves, museums have to make their, have to make every attempt to return them to the tribe in which they were stolen from, or to otherwise be in contact with representatives from whatever tribe that they came from in order to best preserve them and store them safely and with respect. So this has made a huge difference in getting what are actual human remains of actual human beings that were not being treated with respect, to actually being returned, as well as other kind of sacred objects, funerary objects, other things that are very culturally important and should be, and needed to be treated as sacred as any other religion’s sacred objects, but unfortunately repatriation is very slow. Sometimes there are difficulties identifying things. Sometimes they're very difficult to transport. And a huge problem with this is that it doesn't apply to privately held collections, but also private collectors can lend out to museums. And so sometimes there can be like public museum displays, of objects that like by all ethical measure should be repatriated back to the people that they came from. And to just do a very specific example of that in 2018, there was an exhibit called Art of Native America, from the Charles and Valerie Diker collection. And this was at the Met and they did this collection and the Association on American Indian affairs, was like, hey, these are a bunch of sacred objects and this is really bad and you shouldn't be doing this and even calling it art in the first place, because that's an incorrect—because that is not the most accurate term for what these, a lot of these pieces are. And the Met was like, “we met with Indigenous groups” and then they did not provide any more specifics. The representatives who were lodging a complaint against this was like, that doesn't mean anything. What are you even talking about? So yeah, that is one very recent, very specific example of how just having NAGPRA established in 1990, like did not fix everything. And there are still, in museums and the art world in general, like lots of ongoing problems about how objects are collected and displayed.

Betty: Yeah. I definitely have heard of it a few instances in, in Canada of, well, so I've heard of a few instances, there are many instances, of Indigenous art that were stolen or just forcibly taken, or just found, and that were put into museums, that still belong to, or technically belong to, Indigenous people. And so when you mentioned this topic, I tried to look for if we have, if Canada has a similar legislation to NAGPRA, but my conclusion is that we don’t, Like some museums have their own voluntary policies and some do try to repatriate. I came across a few articles… Actually earlier this year in March 2020, there was a local British Columbia artist who went to the Royal BC museum in Victoria, BC and saw a blanket that their grandma made and was like, “oh my God, we've been looking for it for like decades.” We’re like, well, that's cool that my grandma's blanket is in this museum, but we would like it back. So I think the BC either did, or is currently maybe trying to pass some sort of law to repatriate art and some museums like the Royal BC museums are making an attempt at returning artworks, but as you said, it's complicated—and in some cases don't want to, but I won't get into too much of that. You can listen to our other episode about art looting in that regard. Yeah, like, it doesn't seem like we have enough official or legal policy in Canada similar to that. And we probably should, like the biggest things I could find is, you know, either people lobbying for that type of act to come through or like, you know, institutions themselves voluntarily doing it if they actually have a policy. But the other thing that some of the articles I read pointed out is that, you know, this person happened to have gone in to a BC museum and saw their grandma’s blanket, and that was like really lucky. But you know, how many more works are there where they don't see it? And in fact, a lot of museums, they don't display all of their collection. Like the AGO only displays 5 to 10% of our permanent collection, maybe sometimes even less in public. And some works never see the light of day. They're sitting in a storage box for like centuries. So your family artwork or maybe cultural artifact, or maybe human remains might be sitting in a basement of some art museum and you'll just never know. And no attempts have been made to find out like, who owned this or return it, which obviously is very difficult to do. But yeah, this is continuously been a problem in museums for probably forever.

Quinn: Ughhh.

Betty: And then going back to what you said earlier about artists, or, sort of Native Canadian, American art being treated as, these like natural history objects. A specific example is for decades, the Canadian artist Stephanie Odjig. She was kind of true treated as like, I think as she describes like a “relic of a past culture that no longer exists.” Like works that she does were put as like, you know, like a museum piece to represent all these, like, it's almost like you're like, oh, look at these people from like 20,000 years ago lived on this land. And she's a contemporary artist. She only died in 2016. So you know, being treated as somebody from like a millennia is just weird actually. And so yeah, a lot of, and a lot of other Canadian Indigenous artists and I'm sure in the US as well, you know, have been actively trying to fight against this image. And some of them are successful. Some of them are not.

Quinn: On that topic as well, just a few notes having to do with sort of the ongoing fight around museums today. I have a couple of very recent updates. One of which was in June, the American Museum of Natural History announced that they would be removing the Theodore Roosevelt statue at the front of the museum. And I couldn't really remember this statue and I was like oh, I wonder why—obviously Theodore Roosevelt has a very poor history with Indigenous peoples in the United States, like every president, but I was like, oh, that seems like very specific. And then I looked up the statue [laughs]—there’s a statue of Theodore Roosevelt on a horse, flanked on either side with a Native American man and a Black man. Just kind of next to him, walking on the ground on either side of his horse. It's a very confusing statue. I guess he's supposedly was like leading them. I don't know. I didn't bother to look up what the original purpose of the statue was because just looking at it, especially like Theodore Roosevelt was no friend to Native Americans. I'm like, who made this? They actually just very recently removed that. And then another really recent update is the Met, who had that problem in 2018 as I spoke about a few minutes ago, just in September of 2020 hired their very first Native American art curator. So they now have a specific curator whose name is Patricia Marroquin Norby to actually oversee the Native American art in the Met specifically. Which it's wild that they've never had one before, but that’s good. You know, this is progress. So hopefully this is just one of many steps that are necessary to fully return the art and the artifacts of people's cultures and to just generally properly pay for art and to commission it from contemporary Native American artists and all of those good things. So I will be watching with interest to see what changes, if any, having an associate curator of Native American art does for the Met.

Betty: Kind of my gist of everything I've spoke about today is like I do, I do want listeners to understand that this is a very complex history. Like it's not just, oh, you know, we took land and killed people. That happened, but a lot more things happened. And it, the contemporary landscape of Indigenous peoples and as well as artists is, has a diversity of problems. But I think in understanding that like we can move forward. Even though it's quite slow.

Quinn: On a more positive note, as we said in the very beginning of this episode, our next episode will be focused on some more contemporary Indigenous artists, and the work that they've made and have displayed in various places. And looking at how they have taken the incredible trauma that their nations have gone through, and channeled that into some of their artwork. And the way that they express their history through different ways. In the meantime, thank you so much for listening to this kind of unusual episode of Pictorial. You can find our show notes at relay.fm/pictorial. And like I mentioned, there are a lot more in depth sort of resources about Indigenous history. I'm in North America. That goes more in depth with some of the stuff that we talked about here today, you can also follow us on Twitter or Instagram @PictorialPod, or you can follow me on Twitter or Instagram @aspiringrobotfm.

Betty: And you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @articulationsV. And I'm also on YouTube as ARTiculations. And speaking of YouTube, we also upload these episodes to YouTube where we usually will have pictures of what we speak about on the screen. We spoke a little bit less about artwork itself. So this episode may not be too image heavy, but there will be some stuff you can look at.

Quinn: Thanks for listening, art enthusiasts.