Experiential Art

Quinn: Hello, and welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. I'm Quinn Rose and I'm someone who did not go to art school, but I love to always continuously learn about art.

Betty: And I'm Betty. I'm also someone who did not go to art school, but I have been working at an art gallery for the past eight years, and sometimes I go to other art galleries and I run into people like Quinn.

Quinn: So for our last episode of 2020, we're talking a little bit about the one time we got to hang out. I don't know if we mentioned this on the show before, but we started working on this podcast before we'd ever met in person. And then we found out—we didn't even plan this, we found out coincidentally, we were going to be in New York city, a city that neither of us live in on the same weekend, back in September 2019. And so we met up and we went to the New Museum and we saw a really cool exhibit there. So today we're generally talking about experiential art. And so at the very basic level, this is literally basically art that you can experience, that you can interact with and kind of be a part of as opposed to something that you just look at and don't touch.

Betty: Yeah. There is some kind of art history precedence to this, which is that the whole kind of idea of experiential art came about—I’m sure it's not the first time in, in history, but it's first time it's been like recorded in art history textbooks, I guess was the kind of like the 1960s. So a bunch of artists specifically in the US, but also internationally, were inspired by Futurists and Dadaists from the 1910s and 20s who kind of started the idea of performance art. So then in the 60s, a lot of artists took this to like another level and they called it Happenings, which is exactly as it sounds. It's a thing that happens. Sometimes they're called like installations. So they’ll arrange a thing to happen. And they might like put stuff in a room or whatever, and it's supposed to involve the viewer. The viewer is not just viewing, they're actually participating usually, or at least they're within the space. And the artists who are staging these happenings generally are people who are, who have like fundamental differences between them and traditional art galleries and they kind of want to bring it into everyday life and they want more participation from the viewer. So there were others like Klaus Oldenberg and even artists like Yayoi Kusama who stage these types of installations all the way back to the 60s. Obviously artists continue to do that. And many artists do that today, and they're not necessarily called Happenings anymore, but they could be.

Quinn: The main exhibit that we're talking about today is Marta Minujín’s La Menusunda or specifically Menusunda Reloaded. So Minujín is an experimental conceptual artist who has been working for decades, and she first created this experiential exhibit called La Menusunda in 1965. So kind of right in this era of the Happenings as, as they were known. And this was an exhibit that was supposed to represent Buenos Aires where she is from and where she lives. So it's a room, it’s this whole space that you actually walk through and room after room represents sort of a different idea of culture in the city. And especially when it first exhibited in 1965, like it was very experimental and a lot of stuff in it was quite controversial in the way that it was presented. Which I think is really cool because she really believes in art being temporary and so—and tearing everything down or even just making things in temporary materials in the first place. So the original La Menusunda no longer exists. It was all destroyed, but it's been recreated. And so it was exhibited in the New Museum and now it's exhibited in other places it's going to the Tate and everything. But what we saw at, like, I thought it was really cool, but there was nothing that was like shocking, but in the 1960s, it actually was like kind of a bigger deal.

Betty: Yeah. I would say the only thing that was like slightly shocking, but not like—not like really shocking, but just like unexpected to an extent was—so yeah, like you said, there’s different rooms and different areas represent different parts of life in Buenos Aires. And then there's this one part where it's just like a bedroom, there's a mattress on the floor. And then there's like a couple lying in bed together. Like it wasn't like super shocking, but I guess, like, I don't see a lot of just two people lying in bed together in most museums. So it's like not a typical thing you would see. And so yeah, I think, and because the rooms are really small and they're really tight spaces, it was like, you turn around and you go up these stairs and you just like, there's like a ledge and you just see these two people lying in bed together. So I think when I saw it, I was like, oh, hello. And like, I wasn't entirely sure if this, these two people were like, visitors or like a part of the show and actually I'm still not entirely sure, but I think they were probably a part of the show. But I would assume back in 1965, when it was, when it was first shown, people would have been like, oh my God, there's like a couple of lying in bed together. Like, I don't even know if that was on TV at like at the time, if they would even see that on TV.

Quinn: Yeah. Well that was the thing. Of course it was surprising for us to see like people was part of an art exhibit. Cause we were like, oh, that's not usual, but like, in 1965, it was scandalous to have a man and woman laying in bed together, even though they're just like sitting there reading magazines, you're just like, oh my God.

Betty: Yeah. They weren't like naked that they were like, they were in their pajamas or, and they weren't like having sex or anything. They’re just like, yeah, like talking or reading there. But I'm sure at the time it was still like, oh my God. And then, and then I'm also not sure, like who, what the couples look like back in 1965, but the ones we saw, like it was a Black man and a white woman, which I'm sure in 1965 people would have just lost our minds.

Quinn: Well, presumably the original exhibit, like they were both Argentinian. Because it was in Buenos Aires. I don't actually know if there's any specific, like reasoning behind the casting of the different people in the exhibit. Cause there are—we’ll talk in a moment about the other people in the exhibit. So I don't, I don't know if there are any specific, like, racial requests from Minujín about like, who should be cast, but yeah, that's that's who was in it when we saw. Presumably they also have a lot of people, they don't just have like the same people every single day, day out.

Betty: No, they gotta lie there for the entire duration of the three months. They can't live in that room.

Quinn: This whole thing was actually first recreated in 2015 back in Buenos Aires. And then the one that we saw in 2019 was the first presentation of this exhibit in the United States, which is pretty cool. And I will say, like I mentioned that it's going to go to the Tate, like it was already supposed to be there, but because of COVID, it's been delayed. So potentially like people in the UK will be able to see this sometime soon, it is actively kind of out there right now and being exhibited different places.

Betty: I’m going through my pictures. And what I can remember is there, there was like a room with just like all this like neon light everywhere. And like, it definitely felt very psychedelic, very 60s. I have a really nice picture of you in that room. And yeah, that part was just very, yeah, I think it was just very trippy and presumably, you know, there were lots of neon everywhere in Buenos Aries in the 60s.

Quinn: Yeah. You started out like, there’s these neon rooms— Minujín  specifically mentioned that that's supposed to represent the nightlife in Buenos Aires. There was a room where you just saw a little black and white televisions playing stuff, the room with the couple. There were some areas that were really kind of claustrophobic to get through when you were sort of like kind of battling your way through obstructions to get through the exhibit. But before we get into that section and the last room, I think one of the most striking things about the whole thing that literally stays with you is the makeup room. The whole room is constructed under the concept of it's the quote unquote, “inside of a woman's head.” And so it's kind of commentary on like, oh, women only think about makeup. And so it's like, you're suppose—you’re in like this round room that's supposed to be inside of a head. It's bright pink. There's just makeup in packages taped onto the wall everywhere. And then there's actually a human being, like running a mini nail salon inside the room and she just like, hey, would you like me to paint your nail? And we were like, sure. And then you pick the color and she paints one of your nails.

Betty: Yeah. I mean, I really—I don't think that practice is going to continue again for awhile, just going and getting your nails painted, but it was great that we were able to experience it. I actually literally just realized that we were like, I knew we were metaphorically inside a woman's head, but I was just looking at the pictures and I just realized that we're looking at a reverse, like eyes, nose, and mouth for like from the inside and then the, the person who's running the nail salon is like sitting just inside that, and her name is Miss Elaine and she has a lot of nail polish.

Quinn: She did a good job painting my nails. I will say I kept that one painted nail for like a while.

Betty: Oh, wow. Okay, nice. Yeah, and then I do—the path of getting into the nail salon, it was this like narrow, super claustrophobic staircase and it had, but good thing is it did have like foam all, all the way around. So I guess if you hit your head, it’s soft.

Quinn: Which I presume people do all the time. The whole thing is supposed to be, supposedly it's Buenos Aires from an artist perspective is what she said. If you can't tell by the way we've just been talking about and describing this whole exhibit, Minujín is very weird and I love her very much. I'm going to link a video that the Tate did that is one of the ones that I watched where she's just talking about her life as an artist and specifically La Menusunda and… it's just amazing. She's so strange. And she, and I really love the fact that this art piece is designed so basically you can see the world through her eyes and you can see like sort of tongue in cheek bits of social commentary, just sort of an overload of the senses in different places. These very sort of like obstructive claustrophobic rooms in other places. It was really fun.

Betty: Yeah. I think it was, it definitely feels like you're inside someone's head, not just one, one of it is like, you know, it literally is supposed to represent that. But I think because of like the claustrophobic nature of it and just it's, it's an overwhelming load of stuff everywhere to your senses. I think that the part we were, you mentioned earlier about the black and white TVs, cause they're showing footage from surveillance cameras that are around the space. So very often you see yourself in it. And I there's a picture of me, like picture of me taking a picture of the surveillance camera. And then it shows up on the TV. It's very Inception, but the pictures are, you know what I'm talking about. But it just that part, like, yeah, it felt very, you know, kind of like disconcerting and uncomfortable. And I think it's supposed to cause you know, it’s presumably about surveillance and cameras and seeing yourself on them.

Quinn: Yeah. And it's an interesting touch with that being something from the 60s, because art commenting on the surveillance state is like pretty common now because of, you know, everything in like phones and everything, and how much of our life is the panopticon now. But seeing like, even back in the 1960s, like this pointing out of cameras and surveillance footage at everything was pretty interesting.

Betty: The fact that this has been recreated now in like 2010s and now 2020, there is—it’s not only kind of like looking at what things would have looked like or what she would have thought about back in the 1960s in Argentina. There is a contemporary commentary or possibly contemporary interpretation of it because now there's social media and you know, all kinds of there, there is an even bigger, or some could argue explosion of imagery in the world now. So it really makes this work relevant right now.

Quinn: Absolutely. And I think you referenced this before, but I think like one of the last, maybe the very last room that you go through at the end is this room of mirrors. And so the whole thing is mirrors and there's a spinning platform in the middle. So you can get on the spinning platform and then it'll spin and these fans will go off and blow confetti everywhere and lights will flash. So it's just sort of this somewhat psychedelic experience and just—that you get to very much be in the middle of, and be a part of it and also be a part of like making that motion happen. And again, it's something else that was really fun. And also like according to Minujín is supposed to represent freedom and coming out of the more like boxed in spaces where you’re bumping against stuff ad have to figure out how to get out of little areas. Then you get through this like really fun thing at the end with lights and color. And almost an overwhelm of the senses, but very victorious at the end.

Betty: I would say—I would probably not recommend being very high when you're going through this, even though it sounds like it could be a good experience, or interesting experience for some, but it might just be way too overwhelming. I don't know. I was completely sober when we went through and I felt like I was on drugs.

Quinn: It would be very funny if you were like, “I was really high when we were there.” [laughs]

Betty: I'm pretty sure my brain would have exploded or something. And the thing I loved the most about the confetti room and the fans is, is that the confetti ended up being everywhere in the whole building. Like I think before we even got today's exhibit, we were on like the second floor or something. We're like, why is there confetti everywhere? And it had nothing to do with what was on the second floor. It just, it just blew up all over the building.

Quinn: And then it was, it was so funny and it like, oh, oh ohhhh! When you finally get to that room.

Betty: I mean, I could just imagine having cleaning up after this exhibit leaves, like I'm sure new, the New Museum is still finding confetti and will for the next 10 years.

Quinn: Oh yeah. I'm sure the staff the New Museum did not like this exhibit. The one thing that is a huge bummer about it is that it's completely inaccessible. There's a lots of like going up and down stairs and lots of like sensory experiences that are very much not accessible for a lot of people who are disabled. And so that definitely sucks. I don't know if they have accommodations that are available for people who like need mobility assistance or anything so that they can also experience it. Cause I mean, obviously it was built in the 1960s and I don't think that was a consideration when she built it, but now it's 2020. And so like, I'm hoping that there was stuff I didn't see from the main aspect of it that like, they do have ways to make it accessible or that hopefully like that is something that they're building into it as it continues to sort of go around the world. But yeah, that is something I noticed as well.

Betty: Definitely. The fact that they have a chance to rebuild it everywhere they go is, you know, there's probably chances to incorporate accessibility into this. But I guess maybe in certain parts of it, you know, the whole, like going into a tiny little tunnel is technically a part of the experience, which, you know, if you've made a giant wide ramp, it will probably change the nature of it to an extent. But, you know, I definitely think that doesn't necessarily mean you'll lose everything in the experience.

Quinn: Yeah. It would even be interesting. I mean, I'm not Minujín and I'm not in charge of this, but it would be really interesting to have like parallel experiences that present different sort of different perspectives on the same artwork as you travel through it. I think that would be really cool in a way to even expand the piece sort of for the 21st century. But I don't, I don't know what they're planning to do with it, but I think that would be cool. Well, while we're here talking about this, I think we had a couple more sort of experiential art pieces that we've seen that we wanted to mention as well.

Betty: Yeah. One thing that this topic reminded me of right away was a particular artwork that I saw around the same time, just a few months before. So these are the two pictures I sent you earlier. So this was at the LACMA, the Los Angeles… contemporary?

Quinn: County.

Betty: County, Los Angeles County Museum of Art. So they had a show back in I think this was June or July of 2019. It's called The Allure of Matter: Material Art from China. So it was works from China or Chinese artists that you know, had to do with matter and material. It's a really great show. I was looking through my pictures and I just thought, I thought of like six topics for us, just from looking at these pictures.

Quinn: Amazing, mini series coming.

Betty: Yeah, mini series, based on that one LACMA show. But the one work that I thought was really cool and also you know, it wouldn't technically be called a Happening, but it really could be, and it is very experiential, but also is similar to the Minujín work, it’s kind of ephemeral and temporary, was this work called Traceless Stele by the artist Song Dong. And I've mentioned him before and I was actually going to talk about a couple more of his artworks, but I'm like, we need to do a whole episode on this guy because he's awesome. But just, you know, quickly to touch on this piece. So what it is, it's a giant stone piece and—actually, it looks like stone, but it's made of completely made of steel. And then there's actually a heating mechanism in the middle of it. It's very high. I think it's like, almost double the height of a person by maybe like 10 feet or something. And there is a puddle of water on the, in the basin underneath. And then a stone is just like, or sorry the steel is just exposed. And there is—the particular artwork provides paint, brushes, like traditional Chinese looking brushes, and it invites the viewer or visitor to pick up the paintbrush, dip it in the water and paint it on the steel. So then what happens is it almost looks like, you know, you're drawing with ink on the steel, but it's just water. So then what, because there's a heating mechanism. It actually, after you draw on it, it disappears within like a minute, like 60 seconds. And then it's completely gone. So it continuously changes throughout the day, depending on, you know, people painting on it. So like I went up and I just put the Chinese characters for “you” and “me,” mostly because those are the few characters I remember how to write. It doesn't necessarily mean anything deeper than that. But yeah you can, they're like kids, this work, like you can draw on it and then you can write on it and stuff like that. But yeah, so his inspiration is memorials in China. So like steles or “steelies,” I don't really know how to say this word, but they're these giant, you know, stone tablets that are meant to commemorate people or events and just like important things in history. But it's kind of interesting that this turns it, that concept on its head because the whole idea of having a giant tablet with carved words is to be super permanent, that like it lasts centuries and millennia sometimes, but this literally, whatever you write on it lasts less than a minute. And I think he's also inspired by Taoism and like notions of impermanence and like, you know how water is translucent and formless. And it's this just this whole idea of, you know, everything dies, I guess, like if nothing is permanent. And yeah, so I really love works like this because it not only invites the visitor to participate, but also, yeah, like nothing is ever the same with this. And the only, the only record of me writing on it is because I took a picture of it. But other than that, it's completely evaporated.

Quinn: That is really cool. And I love the way that it involves, especially children like you were talking about and being able to interact with something and see your mark on it, but then see it disappear. I feel like that's such an interesting contrast to like the permanence of the, the structures that inspired that. And this piece actually reminded me of the wall in Belfast. So Belfast, Ireland was basically the epicenter of the Troubles. And there was literally a wall put through it. And while there still are a lot of problems in that area and conflicts in that area and some of the wall actually still stands, which is sad, but there is, there are sections of the wall that have been left up specifically kind of as monuments to peace. And they are covered in murals and there's some sections of the wall that are actually there specifically for people to write on. And so you are actively encouraged to, to take Sharpies and to write on the wall messages of love and peace from around the world. And I just think that that's really amazing. And it, I think that it actually counts as like an experiential art piece, even though it is like literally a wall that was used to separate people in times of war. It now is kind of in the way like the Berlin Wall is now covered in murals for art and peace and all of that, like, it's a very similar thing, but it also actively invites people to be part of that experience. But also because everybody's writing on all the time, like while you are like writing in permanent marker on this permanent wall, like in a way it is also temporary over the long term, because eventually, like it will be covered over and written over by other people. And so it's kind of a similar concept, but on a, on a longer scale.

Betty: Yeah, that's a, that's a really great connection. So another trip, let’s go to Northern Ireland and write on that wall, when this is all over in like five years. Another work, or series of works that are on this topic. I mentioned earlier, so the Japanese artist Yayoi Kusama was kind of, you know, probably one of the pioneering people of the Happenings, even though she was never given the credit. So she—I won't go into a huge introduction on Kusama because you can watch my YouTube video on Kusama called “Why Kusama Matters,” plug, so if you want to know more about her. But Kusama basically, she started doing her first immersive installation back in the 60s as well. One of the first shows she did is called the 1000 Boat Show where it literally is a boat made of penises. Well, sorry, fabric penises, not real penises. And then she took pictures of the boat and then reprinted it, like, I think a thousand times on the wall. And apparently this show, Andy Warhol came to see it, and this was one of his inspirations for doing his multiple repeated images motif throughout a lot of his work. So of course, Kusama was like, Andy Warhol ripped me off. So anyway, so, but one of the things she's most known for are her infinity rooms. So a few years ago we had Kusama infinity rooms, infinity mirrors exhibition at the AGO. And I think it's probably gone on to other places or have plans, but obviously that's probably changed in recent months. But anyway, her infinity rooms are all over the world so there’s, there was one in LA when I was there. And then, you know, we have one of the AGO now permanently, so you could actually go experience this probably wherever you are. But they're really immersive. So they kind of range from the one I just mentioned where there's she has one room called phallus field, which is a room full of fabric penises with polka dots on them. And then she has other ones that look like it's the kind of like stars or lights or galaxies. There's one called fireflies on the water where it's just like, it looks like there’s a million or trillion candles and lights everywhere or fireflies everywhere. And so yeah, like lots of people have you know, different experiences with her rooms. But some of the words that I found in my research a while ago about her work was these words such as “intimate impression” and “epic expansion.” So like when you're in some of her rooms where it looks like it's like the galaxy, like you kind of, you almost feel like your body's like floating in space and, but not just like physically, it almost feels like your consciousness is like floating into a million pieces. Again, her works are sometimes quite like psychedelic and feel like you're tripping even if you're sober. And some, some of the rooms that, you know, you may have seen pictures of, she has this room where it's just full of pumpkins with polka dots all over them. And again, because it's mirrors everywhere, it's reflected infinitely. Honestly, it's difficult to like describe how crazy her rooms are. Like, if you go on Instagram, you'll see like billions of videos and pictures of it. So you can kind of experience it in that way, but it really is one of those things where like you have to physically go there and to, to really experience. So again, when museums are fully open and functional, I would recommend it.

Quinn: I will say, I have not actually been able to be in one of her infinity rooms yet, but I have seen some of our other work and it is very interesting. And so I would love to be able to experience the infinity rooms someday.

Betty: Yeah, for sure. And the infinity room at the AGO is unfortunately I think still closed. And that's another thing you, you kind of—they’re small rooms. I think like generally they only let one or two people in at the same time. So I don't actually see what the problem is, except I guess like, you know, because they're small spaces, if you like sneezed in one of them, it could, particles could stay around for when the next person comes in. But you just might have to wait 10 minutes between people.

Quinn: Well at any rate, lots to look forward to in the future. I like how the stuff that we've talked about today has created like a whole world tour of artists and things to check out where you got to list.

Betty: We got a list.

Quinn: Hey guys, we're looking at 2021. Are we optimistic? No. But you know, we can keep a little bit of hope of life. Well, thank you so much everybody for listening to this episode of Pictorial. You can find our show notes at relay.fm/pictorial or on Twitter or Instagram @PictorialPod. You can also find me on Twitter or Instagram @aspiringrobotfm.

Betty: And you can find me on Twitter or Instagram @articulationsv. I'm also on YouTube at ARTiculations. And speaking of YouTube, we also upload these podcast episodes to YouTube, but with pictures that we edited throughout the show. So for this one, you can experience the art with us as we talk about it.

Quinn: Thanks for listening, art enthusiasts.