Banksy

Quinn: Hello, and welcome back to Pictorial on Relay FM. I'm Quinn Rose. I am someone who did not go to art school, but today we're talking about art that's also crime. So what are you going to do now, art schools? 

Betty: Hi, I'm Betty. I am also someone who did not go to art school, but I have been working as a gallery guide at an art museum for the last eight years. We're going to be talking about someone who, I don't know, maybe he doesn’t really like art museums or art schools anyway. So I think we're the perfect people to talk about him.

Quinn: Yeah. So today we have an episode all about the mysterious artist Banksy, and I was going to say in my intro “I didn't go to art school and neither did the person we're talking about today,” but like, to be fair, no one really knows anything about Banksy. So for all we know, he has a PhD in art history.

Betty: We have no idea and we don't even know if he's a he, although he probably is, but who knows? 

Quinn: I think that's like the one thing that people are like pretty established on, but we're not 100% sure. It could be an elaborate hoax.

Betty: Exactly.

Quinn: Yeah. So most people out there have at least heard some kind of passing familiarity with the artist known as Banksy. He is a graffiti artist primarily, that’s what he is famous for. And he's also famous for the fact that no one knows who he is. Like we just mentioned, he publicly identifies as a man and has appeared in videos seeming vaguely masculine shaped with his face covered. Again, this could all be a hoax because that literally could be a different person than the person who's actually the artist here. We don't know anything for sure. But basing off of that assumption, he is a British artist… and that's about where biographical information that's known about Banksy stops. Which actually, I just have to say right up top. I'm extremely impressed that he's remained anonymous. He's been active for decades. I don't know how he's managed to remain anonymous through all of this time. But it actually is a pretty cool thing even in itself that no one knows who he is.

Betty: Yeah, for sure. It is quite impressive considering the amount of attention on Banksy. And I do think the anonymity, like it is definitely a part of, it’s a part of, you know, what makes him interesting and I think is a part of the brand maybe. You know, I think similar to the Guerrilla Girls being anonymous, even though there's people suspected identities behind the masks and, you know, as well as musical artists and people who are famous, who are anonymous, it’s like a lot of times the anonymity itself, is a part of the interest. I mean, partially because people are just like, ooh, like I want to know who is it? Or like who's behind this. But also the fact that, you know, when you don't have a person to attach behind the work, there's all kinds of things that you can and cannot do. You know, like you can't criticize someone based on what they look like or who they are, when a lot of times that's what people do to celebrities. So like I do, I'm like super fascinated by the anonymous aspect of who he is.

Quinn: Absolutely. And I think you're completely right in the fact that it is part of the brand and it's part of what has established him as more successful than other street artists is because there is sort of this mystique of, ooh, no one knows who he is. That's so cool. And I think that, when it started, it definitely was part of this idea of like, I mean, he was… doing crimes. That's just, like graffiti—he was graffitiing spaces that he was not legally allowed to paint on. And so the anonymity was an important part of protecting his safety so that he wouldn't get arrested. And then over time it has developed definitely, into not only preserving his identity so he doesn't get arrested, but also as part of this grand mystique of a brand that he has.

Betty: There are some, or some people think they have ideas of who he is, but again, like it's all disputed. Like I think I read on probably like Wikipedia or something that he apparently didn't finish school and then has been to prison, but again, it's not like fully verified. 

Quinn: So if you are not familiar with Banksy as an artist, he is known for making pieces that are politically charged, that have very strong political messaging, and tend to take iconography from recognizable things in culture and switching them around somehow. And he does most of this using a stencil drawing graffiti. So it's not free hand spray paint on walls. It’s done with stencils, which allows him to create a very recognizable style very quickly. And he also has worked and a lot of other mediums and has done sort of like performance art stunts as well. But the graffiti works that he does in spaces on public walls and buildings are definitely what he is still to this day the most known for, and continues to do to this day. And some of the things that he's done, for example, things that you might recognize would be, an image of a small girl who is reaching her hand up to try to catch a balloon shaped like a heart that's floating away, an image of a protestor in a mask who appears to be throwing some kind of bomb or explosive, but in his hand is actually a, it’s actually a bouquet of flowers. He rails a lot against capitalism, there's like an image of a Jesus being… Jesus being crucified, but he's holding shopping bags. Or like something like Ronald McDonald and Mickey Mouse and in between them they're holding like this poor child whose life has been racked with violence, et cetera, et cetera, alongside all of these kinds of ideas and anti-capitalist things. Does that about sum it up, do you think?

Betty: Yeah, that’s actually a really good summary, that’s a really good overview of who he, who he is or what types of art he creates. And I, so I first heard of Banksy through the documentary or fake-umentary that it's sometimes called, “Exit Through The Gift Shop.” It was actually assigned to me as a film to watch in school. So I went to design school and I took an art and design history course. And our professor assigned us to watch Exit Through The Gift Shop. I think this was around the time when the movie came out in 2010. So I watched the movie, and the movie wasn't necessarily about Banksy. It was a movie that was done by a man named Thierry Guetta, he is a French guy who was living in Los Angeles and he became obsessed with street art. His cousin is apparently the infamous street artist Invader. And so he kind of started with following his cousin and then eventually discovered other street artists like Shepard Fairey. And as well as Banksy. And then, you know, the documentary, he kind of just like is interviewing these street artists and then, but the funny thing is Banksy ends up, like throughout the film, eventually turning the camera back on Thierry, who becomes a street artist himself. He becomes this artist called Mr. Brainwash. And then Banksy is kind of like now making a documentary about it Mr. Brainwash. And it just becomes really interesting how this kind of unfolded. Some people think that it's not like a real documentary, that it was like staged, which, you know, it could very well could have been, but it's kinda like, you know, either way it is kind of is like a documentary about street art, but also about, you know, their view of the art world about different political ideas and also like consumerism and, you know, being like brainwashed by all this art. And then of course the title of the film is called Exit Through The Gift Shop, which alludes to the fact that most museums and art galleries, they make you walk through the gift shop on your way out. So you spend money there. So that it, you know, it's not just about appreciating the art, it still comes back to capitalism. So it, yeah anyway, so that, that was when I first heard about him, which was back in 2010. But, again, like you said, he's been active for decades and he's done a lot of really interesting work since then as well, which I'm sure we'll get into later on in the episode.

Quinn: Yeah. I don't remember how I first heard of Banksy. I think that he probably has one of the greatest name recognition of any contemporary artist, because like, he's not only so successful and well known, but he's sort of is like the representation of all street artists. Even though there are so many street artists working all across the world, I would say he’s without a doubt the most famous one in the English speaking world, like his work is everywhere. It sells for incredibly high prices at art auctions, which we'll get to soon. And I would love later down the line to do other episodes about street artists, because I love public art, in all of its forms. But yeah, I don't remember even remember the first time that I heard of Banksy, because I feel like his name is just out there so much and is just sort of like proliferates through society. And this kind of gets at a big conversation that I want to have about… the man, the artist, the concept of Banksy has definitely become very controversial and there's always been controversy around Banksy. Like that was kind of the point, but I feel like that's shifted. And that the original sort of discussion around him was, is this even art? This man is a criminal, graffiti artists are criminals, blah, blah, blah. Which is very interesting, cause I feel like that was sort of the point, he was supposed to be pushing boundaries, rejecting the ideas of capitalism and consumerism and living on the fringes of society in this way. However, now things have shifted. Banksy is an incredibly successful artist. His pieces have sold at art auctions for millions of dollars. And there have been cases of him like trying to really aggressively enforce trademark on his work. There's been cases of him like, places where his art has gone up have been like really aggressively preventing his work from being defaced, even though it is itself a defacement of the original property. And of course, there's this whole thing of like, people love this guy. I mean, lots of people in the art world still think he's terrible, but I mean like incredibly affluent celebrities have Banksy works in their homes, like art galleries hang his pieces, some authorized some non authorized. He definitely commands a huge level of respect and can demand a huge amount of money for his work, which in a way is the complete opposite of everything that he was originally working towards and the ostensible message of all of his work. And so my question that I want to pose to you and the audience for discussion: does his anti-consumerism work hold any value in an age where he has become the person with power? What are your thoughts? 

Betty: My thoughts are… complicated.

Quinn: Oh yeah, lay them on me.

Betty: Yeah. This is not an exact parallel, but I'll kind of propose it anyway. A few episodes ago, we talked about the Chinese contemporary artist Ai WeWei. And we spent quite a bit of time talking about how he smashed Song dynasty vases. And he apparently is protesting the destruction of Chinese cultural heritage. But he's protesting it by literally doing the same thing. Like he's literally destroying the very thing he thinks is wrong to be destroyed. So in a way, what Banksy has become is like the very thing that he supposedly thinks is wrong with the world. And he now has become it, or some people may argue that he has become it. So it's kind of this ironic presentation of what it is. That seems to be what he's doing, similar to what Ai WeiWei was doing. Oh, so again, like people may look at works like these and go like, well, that's stupid, you know, that's stupid that you're just being a hypocrite that you're, literally, or you're being ironic, but you know, you're, you're doing the thing that you think is terrible. I think that that's a part of it. Like that's a part of what it is. I think you're also, you’re always a hypocrite when you live and are sustained by a capitalist society while you're criticizing capitalism. I don't think it's possible to exist in this society without being a part of it, without being a willing participant. Even though you're criticizing, you know, everything that's wrong with it.

Quinn: That's a very good point. As The Good Place, the TV show, thoroughly discussed, there is no way to live a completely non hypocritical life because of society… please imagine society with like, rainbows around it, as they say it like that.

Betty: My general perception of Banksy, to kind of just give it away at the beginning is that I think, I don't think he necessarily intends on being like, you know, critique of capitalism or these political divides in the world and stuff. I think like his basis is he is trying to question things. And we'll get into sort of examples of how. Like he wants you to question, you know, is graffiti really art, or is it vandalism, or is it both? And it's kind of complicated, you know, what is art worth? And what's the difference between it being in a museum or on a street, like by carving it out of the wall and putting it in a canvas, does that change things? I think he wants people to question things and not just take it at face value. So that's why I think like, that's why I think it's justifiable to be kind of a hypocrite, in this way. Cause you know the goal isn't to say one thing is right or not, it is to kind of just get people to be more inquisitive. So I think that's why, like, I personally think, you know, he's done a good job of delivering these types of messages like that. I don't think he's, you know, a terrible person or particularly bad for the art world, but other people obviously disagree. 

Quinn: Interesting. I'll say in terms of my overall thoughts on Banksy is I am deeply skeptical of him. And that's for two reasons. One, I do think that a lot of his political messaging and his art actually isn't particularly creative. I mean, I actually do think his style is a very interesting and I like it. And I do think that some of his work is like, creative and sends a really striking message, but a lot of it is like, oh, you did Jesus with shopping bags. What an inspired choice. Like a lot of it is kind of, a little bit makes me roll my eyes where I'm like, I don't think this is actually as incisive as you think it is. So that's part of it. And the other part of is just sort of my general skepticism of someone who still claims to be on the fringes, but has very obviously amassed a lot of power and success. And the anonymity of Banksy really complicates that because on one hand you can say well like that is him preserving his existence as an anonymous member of society, as a member of like this fringe element of society. And like his work still is out there in public. He still does public art all the time and does graffiti pieces that are not authorized, his work gets banned, his own work like out there gets vandalized all the time. And so in that way, like he still is definitely true to his roots and his message that he still claims to espouse. So I'm not saying like burn the witch or anything, but I do, I am just like, generally skeptical. And I'm going to get to a specific example about that in a moment that I think sort of encapsulates all of this conversation. He has a quote where he said, in sort of response to like how successful has worked has been at some auctions. He said, I love the way capitalism finds a place, even for its enemies. And I do think that's interesting because like, cause on one hand maybe some of his work has become disingenuous, but on the other hand, like maybe it's just a matter of that, you know, like we live in a society. Affluent people and capitalism takes the things that it wants and it's not necessarily his intention and maybe he's not making it for them. It just has ended up that way. And that doesn't have to detract from the other work that he does. I'm not like against him in that way, but yeah, I do still have the sort of skepticism of him. And I do think that some of the work that he's made, especially in the way that it sort of aged over time, whereas like at one point it might've been seen as like really revolutionary, but now I'm like, yup. Consumerism is bad. Like we get it. Violence, no good. [Betty laughs]

Betty: That, you know, honestly, you're not alone in that assessment. I actually, while we were researching this episode, I came across, there was a critique in New York Magazine in 2013, after he did his residency in New York where he did a bunch of work, performances as well as a bunch of graffiti around New York. So the critic, Jerry Saltz, he basically like what he said, very similar to what you said this like, oh my God, these political messages are so obvious. And just so, like, “conventional" is the word he used. And he calls Banksy a “promo man.” He says, “Banksy is not an artist. Banksy is an act.” So for sure, there are lots of people who kind of share similar views as kind of what you just outlined. 

Quinn: Yeah. I didn't think that I had like, the genius take that “Banksy might be kind of overrated.” I think people were there with me. But what I think is a very interesting microcosm of this whole conversation around Banksy, and I want to get your thoughts on is of course, the shredding of his art work. So, very famous incident that propelled him even further than where he was. It was in 2018. There was a big art auction at Sotheby's, which is this giant art auction house, in London. And one of Banksy’s prints was for sale. It was of this very famous image, probably his most famous image, of that little girl reaching for the heart shaped balloon. It eventually sold for over a million dollars. And the second that they declared that it was sold, a shredder or went off and half of the painting was shredded. So that the top, half it just sort of like, just started going down and there was a shredder that was installed inside of the frame. And so half of the painting was shredded and the other half was just sort of in the frame over top. And there's video of it. It is kind of amazing to watch the video because all of the people that are like, “ah!”

Betty: [laughs] Yeah.

Quinn: And there's lots of questions that this raises, but sort of the one that I want to get to in terms of this conversation is, is this a genuine criticism of consumerism and like affluent people buying art and the, the value of art and all this stuff. Or was this a publicity stunt to raise Banksy’s profile? Because it did. And the original art piece is now valued for twice as much as it was before it got shredded, because this was such a high profile incident. My main thing that makes me very skeptical that this was a publicity stunt was that they did not shred the whole painting. There has been suggested that it was supposed to, and it jammed, but it seems very suspicious to me. What do you think about this? 

Betty: Well, I have some thoughts. I just wanted to say correction, it was sold for over 1.4 million pounds.

Quinn: Oh God.

Betty: So I think like I think a lot more than 1.4 million dollars, but anyway—

Quinn: That’s a lot of money.

Betty: But again, now it's valued at more than 2 million pounds, which is definitely a lot of money. So yeah, I also did hear that it was supposed to be completely shredded, but then it wasn’t. This work apparently was made in 2016 and again, it was sold in 2018, like 2 years later. After it got shredded, Banksy posted a video on his Instagram showing like the making of Balloon Girl, which he shows like, you know, the frame, how the frame was made and how there was a shredder in it. And he did a few test runs where you see the entire drawing or painting, getting shredded, how it's supposed to work. Supposedly the video was made in 2016 when they made the work, he kind of later said, he quoted like Picasso, saying “the urge to destroy is also a creative urge.” So and I think similar to Exit Through The Gift Shop, how, you know, some people think it was a totally scripted or staged or maybe not totally or partially staged documentary. And a lot of people do think that this particular stunt was staged as well. And Sotheby's claims that they didn't know about the shredding. They had no idea until it happened, but a lot of people think it's so doubtful that they, nobody knew about it. Especially the amount of efforts that these auction houses take to like validate the work and inspect and things like that. The fact that like no one knew about this mechanism is quite suspect. So I don't think it's a leap to say that, you know, Banksy would pull stunts like these or, or like stage these things to happen. But I think just like Exit Through The Gift Shop, like I personally don't think it matters too much whether it was like a complete surprise or whether the jamming or jamming was supposed to happen or not. I don't think that matters too much and cause I, I do think the message of his critique is the more important one. And again, like I also think it goes beyond just like the obvious, like, oh, you know, consumerism and the amount of money art’s being sold is so much, and all these celebrities with their expensive paintings, I think it was, it's more so—or some people at least can interpret this as more so like the artist taking back control. Because we did, I think we did discuss, auctions and auction houses a little bit in our art and wealth episode. And we didn't touch on this too much, but one of the biggest issues with, with auction houses and with galleries and with just art sales in general is that the artists themselves have almost never really see the bulk of the money. Like the, a lot of it are like secondary sales, or they're not being directly sold by the artist or the artist is being represented by a gallery. But the gallery, yeah, it’s taking like a huge, huge percentage sometimes more than 50% of what the art is worth plus like, you know, additional handling fees or whatever. So ultimately at the end of the day, even if you're somebody who is buying an artwork cause you want to support an artist, you probably won't get to, no matter how much you spend and very little of the money actually goes back to them. And so, and because the art world is so… I don't even really know what words to use, but like it's so established that artists can't really penetrate it. It's hard for artists themselves to take back control in this world. And so this is, I think it's less of a critique just on consumerism in general, but more of a critique on how little power artists themselves have in the art auction and the art sales world. And that he is kind of in a way going, like, you know, I'm the artist, I'm going to take back control. I'm going to shred it at this auction house. And if he did intend on shredding it entirely, maybe possibly making it worthless, that, you know, is kind of like a big F-you to people who are taking literally like money and control away from the artist. Obviously, you know, now that it's worth even more is like again, so ironic. But again, it just shows you okay, maybe in a way, even when the artist is trying to take back control it kind of backfires on them. 

Quinn: Interesting. There's many layers of the interpretation that you can pull from that. And it's hard to tell what was intentional and what was unintentional. As we're having this conversation, I feel like a lot of it has been pointing towards the question of his intent as an artist and whether or not that intent has been genuine or is still genuine after he achieved a level of me mainstream acceptance in the art world. And I find that question very interesting in terms of like us here discussing him as an artist, and as his potential activism. But I also think that it's not necessarily the most important question in the end. And the most important question is like, well, if he's putting work out there that is supposed to make us question things and make us more inquisitive about the world, do we think that he's doing that? Do we think that he's achieving that goal? 

Betty: Yeah, that that's actually quite a, quite a good question. I think, kind of going back to what you had asked earlier, you know, like was the auction, the shredding, and sort of so many other things that he's doing, is it to raise his profile? And I do think it's possible for him to both be questioning things and bringing things to attention or holding political stances while at the same time, having an ego and wanting to boost his recognition or status. I mean, despite the fact that, you know, he's anonymous and seemingly maybe not seeking fame, but he could also be, you know, seeking a level of, I guess not so much fame, but—

Quinn: Notoriety?

Betty: Oh, notoriety. Yeah. That's the right word. That's the word I'm looking for.

Quinn: And I just—real quick though, on this point is I feel like I do really think though that the idea of like him not being famous doesn't really count anymore when he is one of the most famous artists alive. Because even though like him walking down the street, people would not recognize him, he still gets to like Google himself and there's so much name recognition attached to his brand. And he's not necessarily out there trying to claim that that's it. But I do think that that is like, well, you can't say that anymore. Like Banksy as a, as an artist is famous enough that it is you.

Betty: True, exactly. And sort of back to your question of like is he successful in raising these questions or getting us to think deeper about art and value and things like that, you know, definitely a hard question to answer. One of the things that I've been looking at sort of on this question is, he did like a takeover of the Bristol museum. I think it was back in 2009. And he had a lot of these paintings in gold frames, similar to the gold frame he put the balloon girl. And one of the pieces that he had in the Bristol museum show is that this big golden frame and in it are just these two stick figures that look like they’re cave paintings. But they have these like comic books speech bubbles, and one, one stick man says, does anybody actually take this kind of art seriously? And then the other guy says, never underestimate the power of a big gold frame. So to kind of say that, like, it’s taken seriously or seemingly being taken seriously because it's put on a pedestal, it's in a museum, it's in a big, thick, gold frame. It's on a stand. And of course he famously also did these like pranks where he would walk into the Tate or walk into the Louvre and like stick a picture, a painting he does on the wall and it would stay there for like, days or weeks, and people don't realize that it's not actually a part of the museum's collection. I think I read that like he did this prank where he went into the British Museum and, he put in rock, I guess. And he did what looks like a cave painting, but it's a man with a shopping trolley and it was, it was in the, it was in the British Museum for like days before staff realized “oh my God, this is not supposed to be here.” And they were like super embarrassed. But anyway, so it just kind of shows you that like it's taken, it's being taken seriously, because of the context that it's in and, you know, Banksy is being taken seriously now because of like he's being taken seriously because we, we take him seriously. Like it's, it's like everything else in the world where like, if there is value, or value exists because we put value in it and we have paid attention to it and we're discussing it. But I do think it is important and it is important—the biggest significance that I see from the work he's doing is he is making connections about, like art in and out of the museum, like, again, he’s vandalized museums. So by putting his work in it, he's done, you know, graffiti unauthorized on sides of buildings. And of course people have been known to like carve it out of the buildings and put it in a frame or sell it as an artwork, even though, you know, like, you kind of just like stole it technically. And just kind of going back to a conversation we've had a lot and that I've brought a lot, is this connection of like high art and low art. And I think people who blur the boundaries of it over the centuries and like has always interested me. And I think it is important to kind of look through these lenses of like, you know, why is it important when it's in a building versus out of a building and should that matter? And again, like, I don't have a good answer to that. And I don't think it's possible to, but I think we, we do need to question things. Cause if we didn't then, you know, in a way like the establishment will always get to decide what's important and what's not.

Quinn: I think that overall, this is my favorite thing that Banksy has done as an artist, was the sneaking things into a museum and people in many cases of not immediately noticing that it wasn't supposed to be there. Just cause I find that fascinating. And I do think it did make like a genuinely interesting statement about how we place value on art and decide what things end up in museums and all of that stuff. On this subject though, I think that one of the most important conversations to have in that whole realm of value on art in what we let into mainstream art is these ideas of who has been marginalized over history and women and people of color and queer people and et cetera, et cetera, who have been marginalized out of mainstream art museums and art auctions and all of these things. And it's not necessarily his responsibility to like, take on all of that. But I do think that in the conversation that he is trying to have about the value that we create with art, that I haven't seen him directly take on those ideas. And I do see that as something that is perhaps missing in his message.

Betty: I do think that's a good point. And that's not necessarily his message and his direction. you know, and as an artist, we can't really… You know, it's his decision on what he wants to highlight. I mean he does—some of his work, he has highlighted things like the refugee crisis. There is like a modification of the girl with balloon where I think the girl has a scarf on her head. And I believe that one is alluding to like the Syrian refugee crisis. So he does kind of, he does have like a global multicultural perspective in that case. But yeah, like it, it is still kind of like you mentioned before, like a lot of his stuff is quite obvious and he's not really breaking new ground and maybe that's a part of why, like, you know, some people are not huge fans, not because they hate him, more so because they just don't think he's doing anything that's like super important in, I guess, 2020 now.

Quinn: I feel like there's a lot that I, when I am faced with Banksy’s work that I want to hold him to, that I don't necessarily, I'm not like “well every person needs to be so responsible for all of these ideas” or whatever. It's like when that is such a big part of your entire body of work, both in terms of like the general political messaging that he is focusing on and this idea of like tackling on the mainstream art world and how is he doing that and all this stuff. And I feel like, well, okay, but like, kind of just a question of like, is your money where your mouth is? And that is hard to define with someone like Banksy, since we don't know who he is, we don't know what he's doing with his money necessarily. 

Betty: Yeah.

Quinn: So for all I know he is like gives away everything he gets to the causes that speak to him and that are represented in his art. Like he could be awesome and we don't actually know that. So I don't, I'm not trying to like criticize him too harshly. These are just the things that I am struck by when consuming his art and trying to see, like, do I see a completely consistent message here in terms of all of the things that you are making in your art, as well as the things that you are doing around that in your life. And I'm not sure I do see that total consistency. But we also don't have the full picture. So I can't say for sure one way or the other. 

Betty: Yeah, for sure. I mean, one thing he probably does do with his money is create like more art and bigger and bigger forms of art. Like I, I do want to kind of talk about like a slight side note or tangent. I guess like one of the reasons I personally like, quote unquote, like him or like his work, or just find it interesting is because some of it is just kind of hilarious. A particular thing that I really enjoyed was in 2015, I believe, he built Dismaland in like a seaside British town, or it's like a seaside resort, or more like a former seaside resort that's probably now like derelict and nobody goes there. And he, he basically made a apocalyptic Disneyland and it has like, you know, like the Disney castle, but it's like falling apart. There's like, rides and stuff, but they're all kind of like sketchy and then you play these amusement park games, but they're like super unfair or like, you know, unwinnable, like there's like a topple an anvil with a ping pong ball and yeah, like he got like other artist to participate and make stuff for Dismaland as well. And yeah, there's like a terrifying carousel where it looks like it comes out of a horror movie. And then there's like a, there was a storm trooper that was walking around, but he was like completely miserable. And what I find funny as apparently the employees who worked in Disneyland were just like disgruntled and totally unhelpful kind of like Walmart employees. And they're just rude to you and stuff like that. I mean, I really wish I could have gone there, but obviously, you know, it's all the way in England and I couldn't, I wasn't able to get there in 2015. But like, I think that's just an example of like, you know, obviously there could be like messages in there, you know, criticizing Disneyland and shiny happiness of it. But I think in a way it's just kind of like that’s just an example of something that's kind of fun. And the message or whatever he's trying to convey for me in that particular example is kind of secondary. And just, you know, the part that he is doing something that's like amusing, I enjoy it as a part of that. Like, you know, like all people, like all artists, you know, like not everyone's perfect. And he definitely isn't. But I do think he creates things that are fascinating and, or if not, just kind of fun to observe. 

Quinn: Dismaland did look super interesting. I also wish I could have seen that in person. I mean, that's such a large scale thing to create. It seemed like it was something that a lot of design thought went into and all of these different elements of it from actors to tiny little elements that went through the whole thing. I don't know. It did seem really cool. And just sort of it as a piece in its own artistic merit, regardless of the political messaging of it was like, oh, this is something that took a really long time to make. And a lot of work went into and that is cool in itself.

Betty: Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, like I think he is kind of, as I said in the beginning, like quite complex and like the answer to some of his questions are not very clear and, you know, equally complex. And I think, I definitely understand like some of the criticisms, you know, specifically like the ones that you had mentioned and, like I do, I do think I kind of, I definitely see that, but I do think like some stuff like, yeah, like he couldn’t really help. Again, like a lot of his works are sold not necessarily authorized by him. And they were like probably like stolen or carved out of a wall or something. And the fact that, you know, famous people buying his work, he can't really help that. And he may not even have seen a lot of the money that was acquired through these transactions himself. I do think it just goes back to, like the particular reason why I brought up, you know, that gold frame painting and the stick figure asking, does anyone take this art seriously? Is maybe in a way, like we shouldn't take art too seriously, whether it's in a museum, in an auction house or on the street. Maybe it is a lot of it is just for fun. I do talk about that quite a bit and Banksy’s work and street art in general does remind me a lot of pop art, and when I'm in the gallery that I work in, we have a lot of pop art pieces and, you know, a lot of them are kind of just, nonsensical or doesn't seem to have a meaning to it. And I kind of just tell people that, you know, like, don't take this too seriously, maybe pop art, or maybe this type of art supposed to just be funny and humorous, you know, just like you're watching a movie. It doesn't necessarily have to have deep meaning. It's just there to entertain you. Maybe we should all stop taking art so seriously.

Quinn: Very well said. Real quick on your point of people buying his art for really expensive prices. I do want to say that I did read an account where he would sell art for really cheaply, and then it would later be resold for like hundreds of thousands of dollars. So that definitely was something that happened as well. All of those high value art sales were not necessarily all going to him. I will say, I'm not sure I totally agree with your point about not taking it so seriously. I mean, I do think we should take it less seriously. I don't necessarily think that that's his message because I do think that he with all—most of his stuff is like very politically oriented and I do get the impression that he takes himself very seriously. And I think that is kind of what ultimately rubs me the wrong way about Banksy, and in some regards is that he does seems like he takes himself very seriously. And I do think that he tends to have a pretty high opinion of his own art and the—his own messaging specifically that he's putting out into the world. And it's not that I disagree with his messages and it’s not that I think his art as bad as not that I don't think it has merit, but I do think that sometimes it appeals to this part of our brain likes to think that we're doing activism or making a difference by having a clever idea or like by tweeting a joke that makes fun of someone, that makes fun of like a bad politician or something, but then we ultimately don't do anything. Like, yes, we live in a society and we can't stop that. And we are all like inherently hypocritical by living among other humans in capitalism, totally there with you. But I just hope that for himself and that for everyone who consumes his art, like absolutely like enjoy his art. I do think that the style is really cool and that it has a lot of value, but it's not enough to just come up with a clever pun and make it into an art piece. Like you have to actually go out there and do the activism to stop those things from happening. Like raising awareness through these kinds of images is a form of activism, but it is step one. It is not the last step. And so, yeah, like I like a lot of the stuff, not all of it, but I like a lot of it. And I just hope that, for the man personally, and all of us that we remember that it's just like one really small piece of the puzzle. And like you said, you know, let's not take it that seriously. 

Betty: And you know, let's hope he's donating all of his proceeds to solving these problems that he's taken a stand against. You know, you never know, he could be it everything to like refugees or something.

Quinn: Yeah, absolutely.

Betty: We don't know. but you, you can support these things you believe in. If you want to take action.

Quinn: Everyone should be, you know, supporting what they believe in and if you make it your whole career and brand, you definitely should.

Betty: That's right. 

Quinn: Well, thanks so much for having… I don't usually, I don't usually thank you at the end of the episodes, I think, but this was really interesting. So thanks so much for talking this out with me.

Betty: Oh thank you, I should thank you more for talking about this stuff with me.

Quinn: And thanks everybody out there for listening. You can find our show notes at relay.fm/pictorial, and find us on Twitter or Instagram @PictorialPod. On Instagram I'll post a bunch of images of stuff that Banksy’s made with stuff that we've talked about. And probably some other stuff also in there too. So you can take a look and if you want to, you can find me on Twitter or Instagram @aspiringrobotfm.

Betty: And you can find me on Twitter and Instagram @articulationsv. I am also on YouTube as ARTiculations. And speaking of YouTube, but we do also upload these podcasts as video form on YouTube, where we will insert in pictures throughout the episode of what we are talking about. And then, I don't believe we've mentioned this recently, we also have a Google form in our show notes where you can suggest ideas for future episodes. 

Quinn: Thanks for listening, art enthusiasts!